How to handle when a TD may have made a math error in payouts

[Telperion]

I have barely any tournament experience, so I wanted to bounce a recent B tier amateur tournament off some people who have done this more than me.

Disclaimer up front: I'm not playing amateur for payouts, and it's not relevant whether the PDGA amateur payout structure should exist (since I know that's controversial). I would happily play a cheap Am tournament with no payout, but it's a $50 fee B tier Am event, so the Tour Standards apply. I think the TD may have made a calculation error, so I want to know if what I experienced was typical or if I should follow up with the TD to get some clarification. It may have been an innocent oversight since the TD had the division payouts scribbled on a piece of paper.

The specs:

• PDGA B-tier
• $50 entry fee
• 25 players in division
• Player pack: 1 disc (choice between 2 disc models in premium or a different disc in base plastic), 1 t-shirt

First place was $45 voucher I believe, 4th was $35 voucher. Using the pay tables, those numbers calculate back to a $350 total payout. Breaking down the entry fees, the only way to get to that payout is if the Net Entry Fee was $14, meaning the player pack had to have been assigned a retail value of $36. A t-shirt and disc doesn't seem like a $36 retail value to me.

Am I seeing this correctly? Like I said earlier, I'm not saying there was TD malfeasance, it could have been a simple math mistake. Or maybe the TD got the player pack value mixed up with the value of a different recent tournament that had a 2-disc player pack. Lots of innocent mistake scenarios. I want to make sure I'm not making a newbie error in my calculations before I message the TD and ask if the calculation was accidentally incorrect.

 

[dehaas]

$36 retail value for a piece of premium plastic and a shirt seems reasonable. $18 per item.

Keep in mind manufacturer MSRP for plastic might be higher than what your local store or club charges. I believe MSRP for star plastic is pretty much $20 or at minimum $18. You'll only see that at some place like Dick's though. They also have a minimum selling price, which fit star plastic is right around $15? Champ plastic MSRP is a couple bucks lower.

Some TD's will use the highest MSRP to justify player's pack value, because the difference between that and their wholesale cost is where they make their money. Others will use a more reasonable value. It's kind of a gray area, but your $36 retail player's pack value isn't too far fetched.

 

[DavidSauls]

There are a few other expenses that might come out of the payout. PDGA per-player fees, local series fees, greens fees. Hard to say without knowing all the details.

It could be an error, too. I've made them, in the players' favors as it turned out.

 

[Telperion]

The TD was selling the shirts for $5 during the tourney. The player pack disc's manufacturer MSRP for this line of plastic is $16. That gets to $21, not $36.

I get that there's some margin for the TD, I have no issue there. This, though? Of the entry fee left over after the wholesale prices for disc + shirt ($50 - ($5 + $9)), TD would be taking $22, and $14 would go to the payout. I get that the standards are based on retail, but I can have an ethical issue regardless.

I highly doubt that the PDGA Tour Standards for B-Tier events intended for TD's to get so "creative" with their math that only 39% of the (gross less cost) entry fee is going into the payout while 61% is going to the TD as profit. If that's the way things are going to be run, the Tour Standards document is a sham and I have zero desire to play tournaments with a TD that works the numbers like that. The vouchers were also only valid at the TD's store, further compounding my issue. This would mean that (again using actual costs and assuming an average 60% wholesale price of the TD's store) of the $50 entry fee, $27 is going to the TD and only $9 to the players. You're really going to tell me that 25% of the money pool at wholesale net going to the players and 75% to the TD is okay?

I'm trying to give a benefit of the doubt that it was an oversight.

 

[Telperion]

There are a few other expenses that might come out of the payout. PDGA per-player fees, local series fees, greens fees. Hard to say without knowing all the details.

It could be an error, too. I've made them, in the players' favors as it turned out.

There was a $2 handling fee going to the TD in the payment itself.

 

[dehaas]

Sounds like the TD had extra shirts he was unloading for $5 apiece just to get rid of them. Either he had a minimum order on shirts that he had to fulfill, or he just ordered extras to account for walk ups or people who registered after his cutoff date to get the shirts in time.

A $16 disc and $20 retail value for a shirt still doesn't seem unreasonable.

Infinitely easier to unload extra shirts cheap right there at the event as opposed to after the fact. I typically do something similar after the event I run with extra plastic. Hang out long enough after when everything is picked through and I'll wheel and deal to just get rid of it right then and there. My case is a bit different though, it's just one fundraiser event a year with custom stamped stuff, and I don't maintain a working inventory of plastic.

 

[krupicka]

B-tiers are $3 per player fee that goes to the PDGA that is also deducted. So event without greens fees, you'd have to start from $47 not $50

 

[DavidSauls]

The wholesale costs have nothing to do with it. Players receive payouts at retail, regardless of whether the TD pays retail, wholesale, or received the merchandise for free.

 

[Telperion]

The wholesale costs have nothing to do with it. Players receive payouts at retail, regardless of whether the TD pays retail, wholesale, or received the merchandise for free.

Like I said, I get it. I'm not disputing what the PDGA Tournament Standards are. I asked for thoughts, and I'm getting them. I'm not disagreeing with anyone's experience. I'm saying that a tournament with:

1. 300% t-shirt markup to arrive at "Retail"
2. Merch vouchers to only the TD's disc store (ensuring that the TD takes a ~35% cut of the payout as well)

--does not feel particularly ethical to me. Disc golf tournaments, again, to me, are not vehicles for a TD to figure out every way they can boost their profit at the expense of the players. If this is how this TD will run their tournaments, I'll take my money elsewhere. Again, it's not about the payout for me, I said up front that I'd gladly pay for lower cost non-payout tournaments. I just can't get on board with a TD banking 75% of the total net cost and only 25% going to the players.

 

[Telperion]

i'll reiterate this because I don't think it's being understood: What a TD can do to maximize their profit is one thing. As the people with the experience I asked for have made clear, the TD can do this.

Just because someone can doesn't mean they should. And if this is the way this TD runs their tournaments, I may simply have too great of an ethical issue with how much of a cut they're taking, along with a total lack of disclosure, to play one of their tournaments again.

 

[DavidSauls]

Your complaint is that the players paid $50 and received, maybe, $40-45 in players packs and payouts, on average, in addition to getting to play in a tournament? What's the value of the tournament itself?

 

[DavidSauls]

Like I said, I get it. I'm not disputing what the PDGA Tournament Standards are. I asked for thoughts, and I'm getting them. I'm not disagreeing with anyone's experience. I'm saying that a tournament with:

1. 300% t-shirt markup to arrive at "Retail"
2. Merch vouchers to only the TD's disc store (ensuring that the TD takes a ~35% cut of the payout as well)

--does not feel particularly ethical to me. Disc golf tournaments, again, to me, are not vehicles for a TD to figure out every way they can boost their profit at the expense of the players. If this is how this TD will run their tournaments, I'll take my money elsewhere. Again, it's not about the payout for me, I said up front that I'd gladly pay for lower cost non-payout tournaments. I just can't get on board with a TD banking 75% of the total net cost and only 25% going to the players.

Why would it be better if someone else got that 35% cut? Some outside party, while the TD does the work?

I'd complain about vouchers to a store, unless the store was vending on-site. Otherwise, wholesale prices don't matter. Markups don't matter. Players are getting their value (or close to it)---in addition to the value of the tournament itself.

 

[dehaas]

I guess I don't see the ethical dilemma to it?

Somebody's time and effort to provide a product or service to others isn't subject to compensation?

Maybe somebody with experience with providing shirts at tournaments can chime in...but I would expect they're more than 5 bucks apiece. I looked into getting drifits from DD several years ago and want to think they were in the $7-10 range depending on how many you ordered? Fairly close to wholesale pricing for premium plastic...

If he was selling them for $5 it sounds like he was eating losses just to get rid of them.

 

[Telperion]

Your complaint is that the players paid $50 and received, maybe, $40-45 in players packs and payouts, on average, in addition to getting to play in a tournament? What's the value of the tournament itself?

I feel like a broken record. I don't care about the payouts. The payouts are muddying the issue and you're getting hung up on something I moved away from about 4 comments ago.

For simplicity's sake, let's pretend there are no payouts. No payouts, clear?

For $50, players got a disc with market value of $15, and a t-shirt that's a rough market value of (let's be generous) $8. In this hypothetical tournament I've received $23 in value for my $50 entry fee. Would I pay $27 simply for the privilege of playing in a tournament? No, probably not, it's not really worth $27 for me as an amateur. I'm fine with a TD making a profit off the professionals. I'm not fine with a TD using amateur disc golfers in that way, for that cost.

It's great that you're fine with it. I'm not. I feel like you're having difficulty seeing this from the perspective of an amateur.

No payouts, again, this is a hypothetical with no payouts.

 

[Telperion]

Why would it be better if someone else got that 35% cut? Some outside party, while the TD does the work?

I'd complain about vouchers to a store, unless the store was vending on-site. Otherwise, wholesale prices don't matter. Markups don't matter. Players are getting their value (or close to it)---in addition to the value of the tournament itself.

For the umpteenth time, let me reiterate my point.

I'm not okay with a TD making what I consider to be excessive profits on the backs of amateur entry fees.

Let me break this down for you in really simple terms.

Gross
- Cost
= Net

If cost is low, the net can be divided one of 3 ways: payouts to players, extra profit to TD, or reduced entry fees so that there is a lower net in the first place. I support reasonable profit. I don't believe TDing should be something somebody is using as a for-profit tool to squeeze the players.

I am suggesting that I support 1 and 3, I don't support 2. How hard is this to understand?

 

[Telperion]

I guess I don't see the ethical dilemma to it?

Somebody's time and effort to provide a product or service to others isn't subject to compensation?

Maybe somebody with experience with providing shirts at tournaments can chime in...but I would expect they're more than 5 bucks apiece. I looked into getting drifits from DD several years ago and want to think they were in the $7-10 range depending on how many you ordered? Fairly close to wholesale pricing for premium plastic...

If he was selling them for $5 it sounds like he was eating losses just to get rid of them.

The PDGA Tour Standards clearly care about this because they have mandatory payout of net entry fees. The ethical issue is that, in my opinion, this TD exploited the technical definition of net entry fees by excessively inflating the actual value of the player pack, thus circumventing the PDGA's intended protection of the players.

 

[Broken Shoulder]

For the umpteenth time, let me reiterate my point.

I'm not okay with a TD making what I consider to be excessive profits on the backs of amateur entry fees.

Let me break this down for you in really simple terms.

Gross
- Cost
= Net

If cost is low, the net can be divided one of 3 ways: payouts to players, extra profit to TD, or reduced entry fees so that there is a lower net in the first place. I support reasonable profit. I don't believe TDing should be something somebody is using as a for-profit tool to squeeze the players.

I am suggesting that I support 1 and 3, I don't support 2. How hard is this to understand?

Stop being a d!ck just because you're not getting the answer you want.
You're the new one, remember?

 

[elmexdela]

lulz its like tourneys are hardly worth it or something

 

[John Rock]

You are free to vote with your $$ and just don't take part in any of his events. You are the one that seems to be hung up on demanding everyone here agree with YOUR view of the situation. Don't play! Better yet, take your great knowledge and self righteousness and run your own events. I'm sure most will gravitate to your event and the bad TD will fade away.

 

[dehaas]

I feel like a broken record. I don't care about the payouts. The payouts are muddying the issue and you're getting hung up on something I moved away from about 4 comments ago.

For simplicity's sake, let's pretend there are no payouts. No payouts, clear?

For $50, players got a disc with market value of $15, and a t-shirt that's a rough market value of (let's be generous) $8. In this hypothetical tournament I've received $23 in value for my $50 entry fee. Would I pay $27 simply for the privilege of playing in a tournament? No, probably not, it's not really worth $27 for me as an amateur. I'm fine with a TD making a profit off the professionals. I'm not fine with a TD using amateur disc golfers in that way, for that cost.

It's great that you're fine with it. I'm not. I feel like you're having difficulty seeing this from the perspective of an amateur.

No payouts, again, this is a hypothetical with no payouts.

So you're ok with TD's making money off of pros? Lol ask anybody who has ever TD'ed an event and that's not how it works...

Pros play for cash...and typically do not receive player's packs because their entry aside from tournament costs are put directly towards payouts. Because payouts are cash there's no opportunity for TD's to make anything because there's no markup on the merch being given out as prizes.

Am tournaments help keep vendors in business, simple as that.

If you you have an ethical issue with TD's making money off of ams you better level up and start playing pro. That's simply the financial dynamic of how am tournaments work.

Your $16 disc suddenly became $15 and where can you buy new disc golf shirts for $8? Sounds like you're severely downplaying the value of your player's pack to paint the picture of either a crooked TD or somebody who is magically disc golf rich?