How to handle when a TD may have made a math error in payouts

[dehaas]

So here's the disconnect people...

You guys are talking like $8 discs are a regular thing. Absolutely nowhere can you walk in and buy brand new premium plastic for $8.

$8 might be wholesale cost on premium plastic, but that pricing isn't available to the general public. Becoming a vendor opens the door to risk. Somebody is assuming that risk, providing a service, and in turn is rewarded via profit. Taking a risk gains you access not available to the general public (buying at wholesale).

Because somebody paid $8 for a disc does not mean they are obligated to give it to you for $8.

If you want $8 discs that bad go do the leg work to earn that ability. Don't expect others who have put in the work to make it happen let you free ride.

Do you guys go to the grocery store and say this gallon of milk may ring up at $3 but I know you buy it for $1 so it's not worth $3?

 

[ToddL]

Also don't forget the value of the trophies and CTPs that were available.

 

[Moose33]

I haven't run as many tournaments as some on here, but I've done 6-8 either as TD or just coordinating the players packs and for a small time TD there is basically no profit unless you build it like this guy did.

For example I did an event where you got two Pro type discs and a tee shirt for $40. To you that probably sounds like too high, but since I only order per event I have to pay $8 per disc plus $9-12 per shirt since the run is small and I got nice dry fits. So after shipping I'm in $32-35 per player. Throw in the space rental to the parks department and prizes and I'm breaking even.

Keep in mind most of mine were unsanctioned and I didn't have PDGA fees. So he's probably making a bit of money, but not a lot probably just enough to make it worth his time.

 

[elmexdela]

I haven't run as many tournaments as some on here, but I've done 6-8 either as TD or just coordinating the players packs and for a small time TD there is basically no profit unless you build it like this guy did.

For example I did an event where you got two Pro type discs and a tee shirt for $40. To you that probably sounds like too high, but since I only order per event I have to pay $8 per disc plus $9-12 per shirt since the run is small and I got nice dry fits. So after shipping I'm in $32-35 per player. Throw in the space rental to the parks department and prizes and I'm breaking even.

Keep in mind most of mine were unsanctioned and I didn't have PDGA fees. So he's probably making a bit of money, but not a lot probably just enough to make it worth his time.

he sounds like a thief to me

 

[dreadlock86]

Because I have no interest in starting that kind of drama by naming anyone or anything.

I've ordered runs of ~140 single color, athletic blend, custom graphic tees before. Every year actually for outdoor corporate team building. I know what that kind of pricing looks like because the PO's traversed through a part of my business process.

you're full of $hit

nobody is going to know if you just name a disc brand, plastic type, and shirt material


and "for the umpteenth time", wholesale pricing has nothing to do with this.

Stop being a d!ck just because you're not getting the answer you want.

QFT

 

[rocthecourse]

Am I seeing this correctly?

Yes, but there is nothing you can do about it now.

 

[biscoe]

The breakdown of costs is no more your business than how much each pickle and squirt of ketchup costs McDonald's on your cheeseburger. If you don't feel you received value in an event by all means shop elsewhere. There are only eleventy bazillion events available at this stage of the game. The fact that zero value is placed on simply being able to play an organized event on a prepared course is perhaps the biggest problem with the organized game today- the PDGA's requirements to bribe "Amateurs" to play with trinkets fly in the face of the concept of amateurism in pretty much every sport on earth other than dg.

 

[DavidSauls]

OP is clearly brilliant and the rest of us are too stupid to keep up.

Perhaps I'll stick around disc golf a while and gain some experience, and that'll educate me.

In the meantime, the OP has convinced me that it would be a terrible thing if the people who worked made any money; everything should be given to the people who play.

 

[davetherocketguy]

I have barely any tournament experience, so I wanted to bounce a recent B tier amateur tournament off some people who have done this more than me.

Disclaimer up front: I'm not playing amateur for payouts, and it's not relevant whether the PDGA amateur payout structure should exist (since I know that's controversial). I would happily play a cheap Am tournament with no payout, but it's a $50 fee B tier Am event, so the Tour Standards apply. I think the TD may have made a calculation error, so I want to know if what I experienced was typical or if I should follow up with the TD to get some clarification. It may have been an innocent oversight since the TD had the division payouts scribbled on a piece of paper.

The specs:

• PDGA B-tier
• $50 entry fee
• 25 players in division
• Player pack: 1 disc (choice between 2 disc models in premium or a different disc in base plastic), 1 t-shirt

First place was $45 voucher I believe, 4th was $35 voucher. Using the pay tables, those numbers calculate back to a $350 total payout. Breaking down the entry fees, the only way to get to that payout is if the Net Entry Fee was $14, meaning the player pack had to have been assigned a retail value of $36. A t-shirt and disc doesn't seem like a $36 retail value to me.

Am I seeing this correctly? Like I said earlier, I'm not saying there was TD malfeasance, it could have been a simple math mistake. Or maybe the TD got the player pack value mixed up with the value of a different recent tournament that had a 2-disc player pack. Lots of innocent mistake scenarios. I want to make sure I'm not making a newbie error in my calculations before I message the TD and ask if the calculation was accidentally incorrect.

$36 for a disc and shirt seems right to me. Pretty obvious to me you've never ever run a tourney because there are oodles of other expenses. All those player cards score cards weren't generated for free. Printer ink is expensive and you can't get out the store without paying for the paper. Was there any OB marked? Marked circles? Ground paint is about $6-$7 per can and I've gone through a case for a single tourney. Some parks charge rental fees. I'm running a tourney this weekend where I shelled out $500 to rent the park for the day. Then there's the additional insurance thingy the park required I get from the PDGA for an extra $50. Water...oh yeah gotta have water. That's how much a 24 pack? Then there's trophies...raffle prizes...etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

Get the point? Maybe you ought to think about that before dropping an email to the TD.

And by the way, $20 for a disc seems like the going rate these days and $16 for a shirt is also not unreasonable.

Here's a BUNCH of shirts going for $13-$29 ea

And a bunch of discs going for $13 to $25

Oh, and those prices are BEFORE shipping. Guess the TD has the merch shipped for free too.

I'm going to suggest something I guarantee is going to get ignored: Go run a tourney to PDGA standards and see what it's like.

 

[mojorooks]

[/I]

I'm get frustrated when someone seems incapable or unwilling to understand what I'm saying. Someone wildly missing your point and getting hung up on something you're literally not even saying gets old fast, you know? I'm not saying "not agreeing with my point", not understanding. Disagree away, but don't disagree with something I'm not even saying. That just shows a total lack of comprehension of what I'm posting, and I just don't have any desire to engage with that.

The people responding to your posts are highly experienced in TDing. They see your post in whole different light. Not only do they understand it, they know far more about the post than its total content. It may SEEM like they aren't answering your question but they actually are.

$50 for a disc and shirt and being able to play in a tournament sounds pretty normal to me. If that doesn't sound right to you then that tournament isn't right for you I guess.

 

[ru4por]

$36 for a disc and shirt seems right to me. Pretty obvious to me you've never ever run a tourney because there are oodles of other expenses. All those player cards score cards weren't generated for free. Printer ink is expensive and you can't get out the store without paying for the paper. Was there any OB marked? Marked circles? Ground paint is about $6-$7 per can and I've gone through a case for a single tourney. Some parks charge rental fees. I'm running a tourney this weekend where I shelled out $500 to rent the park for the day. Then there's the additional insurance thingy the park required I get from the PDGA for an extra $50. Water...oh yeah gotta have water. That's how much a 24 pack? Then there's trophies...raffle prizes.

Thought I would help Dave here. Above are some great examples of costs often not considered by the players.

Water...Dave mentions this, but our B Tiers are 144 players...X2 bottles of water each.
Picnic area/Gazebo rental
Pay 2 play wrist bands at some parks
Flyers, banners
Tents and tables
Donuts for the volunteers
The case of beer for the volunteers who come out to the course for two straight days after work to shovel sand off tee pads, trim some brush off lines, paint OB, set up tents/banners, paint 36 putting circles, move picnic tables to pinch points on the course where backup could occur.
We have to rent a porto potty for any event over 100 players
Trophies

You seem like a smart and engaged guy, join your local club. Get involved and help run some tournaments. This is how I started. I was concerned, at the way a group of tournaments were being run. We have now had a turnover in club volunteers and things are run much better. The old regime simply had no knowledge of how things should be done. No malice, they just needed guidance and a bunch of volunteer help.

Which brings me to the last item on the list. Time. Please don't dismiss the HOURS of time and HARD/PHYSICAL work that goes into any tournament. This should not be compensated under the current guidelines, but certainly should be given consideration when questioning the ethics of a TD and staff.

Good luck and get involved.

 

[DavidSauls]

$50 for a disc and shirt and being able to play in a tournament sounds pretty normal to me. If that doesn't sound right to you then that tournament isn't right for you I guess.

Could always find another sport.....though not many come even close to giving amateurs their entire entry fee back, and permitting them to play an entire weekend of competition essentially for free.

 

[Horsman]

If there were more players with the mindset of the OP, there would be less TD's and in turn less tournaments. You 100% got fair value for your players pack and payouts. The TD did not do anything shady. I know you say in this thread a lot that you want people to disagree with you and that its ok if people do but from what I read it does not seem that way. It seems like you came here to complain and have people agree with you but unfortunately for you most people dont think the way you do.

 

[DiscFifty]

The fact that zero value is placed on simply being able to play an organized event on a prepared course is perhaps the biggest problem with the organized game today- the PDGA's requirements to bribe "Amateurs" to play with trinkets fly in the face of the concept of amateurism in pretty much every sport on earth other than dg.

Interesting comment and I agree. Regardless if the motive is profit or just wanting to have a big ol fantastic player pack, the larger the event fee the more the player thinks about the player pack and it's value. For me personally, anything higher than 45.00 (for a 2 round event) and I start to consider what's in the player pack.

May I be so bold to ask the TDs in this thread a question? Regardless the number of players in an event, what do you think is a fair amount of net profit generated from each player that goes directly to the TD? I'm only talking about net profits from player packs, and event fees. Thx.

 

[Telperion]

Well, this blew up.

I got clarification -- the course fee for this event was higher than typical due to the venue.

The value of the player pack was $22. Not that anybody's counting, but $22 for a disc and a t-shirt roughly breaks down to the $16 disc MSRP I referred to + $6 t-shirt. Who am I kidding, I'm absolutely counting because of how much I got absolutely blasted by people saying $36 was a reasonable valuation of the player pack I described. It turns out that all of the times I posted in this thread about $16 plastic + a $5 t-shirt, I was totally wrong. I was off by one entire dollar in my estimates.

I can admit when I was wrong, I was off by $1. One dollar.

For everyone saying that $36 is a reasonable valuation for a disc and a t-shirt in a tournament, I will never play one of your tournaments. Not that your feelings will be hurt, you likely don't want me anyway.

So again, for the record, my math and valuation of the actual value of the player pack was accurate to within $1. I don't expect this will change anyone's minds, but I feel bad for the players who are getting ripped off with inflated t-shirt values in your tournaments. Apparently I have it pretty good.

 

[DiscGolfCraig]

Wait until the OP begins reading the rulebook and starts asking if he should report every single rules violation. We might see a 2-meter ruler make an appearance.

 

[ToddL]

Sounds like you have yourself an exceptionally generous TD. Hang on to him and milk him for all he's worth.

 

[Telperion]

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I'm fully aware of how petty it is to quote all of you to tag you, but as you can see from my comment above, it turns out that I was absolutely spot on about the actual value of the player pack. So... I was right, all along, to value the player pack like that. You're all more than welcome to value a t-shirt at $16-18 in your player packs, and I'll continue to think that you're ripping off your players. We can agree to disagree, since I know we won't see eye to eye on this.

 

[ru4por]

Well, this blew up.

I got clarification -- the course fee for this event was higher than typical due to the venue.

The value of the player pack was $22. Not that anybody's counting, but $22 for a disc and a t-shirt roughly breaks down to the $16 disc MSRP I referred to + $6 t-shirt. Who am I kidding, I'm absolutely counting because of how much I got absolutely blasted by people saying $36 was a reasonable valuation of the player pack I described. It turns out that all of the times I posted in this thread about $16 plastic + a $5 t-shirt, I was totally wrong. I was off by one entire dollar in my estimates.

I can admit when I was wrong, I was off by $1. One dollar.

For everyone saying that $36 is a reasonable valuation for a disc and a t-shirt in a tournament, I will never play one of your tournaments. Not that your feelings will be hurt, you likely don't want me anyway.

So again, for the record, my math and valuation of the actual value of the player pack was accurate to within $1. I don't expect this will change anyone's minds, but I feel bad for the players who are getting ripped off with inflated t-shirt values in your tournaments. Apparently I have it pretty good.

I understand that this is disc golf's own fault. But, you are grossly entitled. As David stated below, we are one of the only sports that give ANYTHING substantial back to participants.

I personally would be glad to play a well run tournament for nothing other than the organized competition. I would gladly pay up to 40 bucks for the opportunity. The idea that everyone should get a trophy is kind of lame, in my opinion. I play for the chance to compete. I don't need t shirts, discs, trophies to make my self feel better. The value is in the course and the competition set up.

You calculations and the ones in use for the tournament you describe are out of line with tournaments across the country.

Seems you have now gone from intimating an ethical breach by the TD of this tournament, to finding it one of the few you will find exceptable. You are going to be outraged at the normal tournament spreadsheet. From fraud to the best ever....quite a flip flop. :thmbup::thmbup:

 

[Telperion]

Sounds like you have yourself an exceptionally generous TD. Hang on to him and milk him for all he's worth.

I'm 100% with you on this. I always assume that the normal Gaussian distribution applies to most things in life, so I start out from a baseline believing I'm experiencing something typical and fair. If something seems to contradict that, I still give the benefit of the doubt unless I have a reason to think otherwise.

It turns out that this TD is actually a good outlier, and reading this thread has been eye opening as to how many TD's are very comfortable with what I consider to be ripping players off on inflated t-shirt values and related tomfoolery.