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Disc Golf Pro Tour

Certainly progress has been made over the last 30 years and there is more money to be made for a touring disc golfer than there was before, but the question remains. Are there enough people willing to spectate (either in person or of a broadcast) to make disc golf viable to advertisers? There are a lot of people betting "yes" and working very hard to reach that goal.
This made me wonder if there would be a way to track how much prize money has been awarded over the past 30 years? If you can show advertisers how much money is being won yearly, it puts a monetary value on those people participating.
 
This made me wonder if there would be a way to track how much prize money has been awarded over the past 30 years? If you can show advertisers how much money is being won yearly, it puts a monetary value on those people participating.

Sponsorship is not about money awarded or really even participation. It is about eyes on their product. Spectators and viewers as 3P stated.
 
Sponsorship is not about money awarded or really even participation. It is about eyes on their product. Spectators and viewers as 3P stated.
While I agree, it is really all about money. If people can demonstrate how much money is changing hands that creates interest.
 
This made me wonder if there would be a way to track how much prize money has been awarded over the past 30 years? If you can show advertisers how much money is being won yearly, it puts a monetary value on those people participating.

The PDGA tracks that info for sanctioned events. And I'm quite certain that the PDGA office uses those statistics in promoting the game in various ways.

I remember a report within the last couple years that PDGA sanctioned events were paying out in excess of $2.5 million to pro divisions on an annual basis. And that that number grows every year.
 
This is the the major PDGA argument of the 30 years rehashed in 2016 terms. Ever since Kransco bought Wham-O and killed the gravy train that was the IFA, the question has been can disc golf (or any other Frisbee sport) create a sustainable professional series of events. A lot of people involved in disc golf thought "yes" in 1985 and took over the PDGA from Ed Headrick with that goal in mind.

Certainly progress has been made over the last 30 years and there is more money to be made for a touring disc golfer than there was before, but the question remains. Are there enough people willing to spectate (either in person or of a broadcast) to make disc golf viable to advertisers? There are a lot of people betting "yes" and working very hard to reach that goal.

People like me get slammed for saying it, but despite the energy and talent of the people involved it is still an open question. It gets presented as a "not if but when" by Pro disc golf cheerleaders, but the reality is that it is still an "if" question. There have been untold hours and dollars thrown at Pro disc golf over the last 30 years by the disc golf community to get us this far, but as a community we only get so far. There is going to have to be an influx of outside, non-disc golf money to meet the lofty goals of the PDGA, the DGPT and the DGWT.

I'm not going to poo-poo the efforts happening here, but the DGPT actually succeeding is not a foregone conclusion. There is a long way to go.

But hey, it's better than the ADGT, right?

Never get caught taking an adult position on something, politics 101. I think your position is sound. I was always of the, we can't have the volume, due to structural limitations. But honestly, the Fins have shown it's possible, at least at some level. Your if hits a nice position, says maybe, maybe not. Somewhere between, can't happen, and we are all gonna die rich.
 
This is the the major PDGA argument of the 30 years rehashed in 2016 terms. Ever since Kransco bought Wham-O and killed the gravy train that was the IFA, the question has been can disc golf (or any other Frisbee sport) create a sustainable professional series of events. A lot of people involved in disc golf thought "yes" in 1985 and took over the PDGA from Ed Headrick with that goal in mind.

Certainly progress has been made over the last 30 years and there is more money to be made for a touring disc golfer than there was before, but the question remains. Are there enough people willing to spectate (either in person or of a broadcast) to make disc golf viable to advertisers? There are a lot of people betting "yes" and working very hard to reach that goal.

People like me get slammed for saying it, but despite the energy and talent of the people involved it is still an open question. It gets presented as a "not if but when" by Pro disc golf cheerleaders, but the reality is that it is still an "if" question. There have been untold hours and dollars thrown at Pro disc golf over the last 30 years by the disc golf community to get us this far, but as a community we only get so far. There is going to have to be an influx of outside, non-disc golf money to meet the lofty goals of the PDGA, the DGPT and the DGWT.

I'm not going to poo-poo the efforts happening here, but the DGPT actually succeeding is not a foregone conclusion. There is a long way to go.

But hey, it's better than the ADGT, right?

I know you hate me agreeing with you but there are times when you're right. This is one of them. :p
 
What are your thoughts on this observation? General growth in the economy overall has done more to fuel money provided by sponsors as added cash than any direct benefits sponsors realistically expect from future increased sales by contributing to disc golf events. From my experience, many sponsors have money set aside for local community goodwill efforts of various kinds as long as you hit them up during the right time in their budgeting cycle or they are members of the chamber of commerce or convention bureau. Whenever there's an economic downturn, these discretionary donations can dry up where sponsors can only afford to contribute when there's a measurable direct benefit to their sales. That's why creating vastly more paying spectators either in person or online is crucial for any chance of long term financial viability of our pro tour(s) during times when the goodwill money has been tapped out.
 
What are your thoughts on this observation? General growth in the economy overall has done more to fuel money provided by sponsors as added cash than any direct benefits sponsors realistically expect from future increased sales by contributing to disc golf events. From my experience, many sponsors have money set aside for local community goodwill efforts of various kinds as long as you hit them up during the right time in their budgeting cycle or they are members of the chamber of commerce or convention bureau. Whenever there's an economic downturn, these discretionary donations can dry up where sponsors can only afford to contribute when there's a measurable direct benefit to their sales. That's why creating vastly more paying spectators either in person or online is crucial for any chance of long term financial viability of our pro tour(s) during times when the goodwill money has been tapped out.
I think there is some merit to this. I've been surprised by some sponsorship we picked up since there was no way the exposure was going to amount to anything for the business. We got a sponsorship from a roofing place one time, the event was 80% people from out of town and 1/2 of the in-town players were college students. It had nothing to do with sponsorship as a business enhancement. The owner had some community money he needed to give away and we walked in nicely and asked. If times are tight, he is going to have a lot less money to give and probably is going to be a lot pickier when giving that money away.
 
I think I've been fairly successful with memberships in my small city of 11,000 people, we have 30+ members, but it's not been easy. I find in general, that most courses are free to like a tennis court,and so rightly or wrongly they think they already payed for it through their taxes, so they shouldn't have to pay anything to support it further. Sometimes you have to explain how the course wasn't built with public monies.

I found people like winning stuff, who wudya thunk it eh? lol. So, I find that if you provide something they can't get, UNLESS they a member (such as access to prizes and draws) , that helps with memberships. For 2016, our club awarded early bird members with a ballot to win a NutSac bag at our season opener.

Some people didn't have time to play the first week, but they stopped by the course, bought memberships for themselves and their family so they would be entered in to the early bird draw. Prizes, like the Acepot, being only available to members is an attractant too.

What I've tried to do is show people that memberships monies is mainly to cover bag tags and insurance mostly, and its main purpose is to be be more attractive to receive grants and such. I also stress that there is no requirements to be a member. Being a member is separate from being on member that is on the board of directors.

Sometimes people think if they are a member, they then somehow may become liable and may be held responsible if something bad happens on the course. So it takes effort sometimes, but I explain how a society works, and how the city and the club's allsport insurance works. Being a society actually takes the liability away from the individual, and the allsport insurance provides liability for all members.

I try to stress that one of the first things the mayor or other people ask when I discuss the course or plans to the city is "how many members do you have", so it's good to have a high number to be taken more seriously and to expedite requests.

I understand the frustration, and I've been puzzled about people not buying memberships too, sometimes I find that people think memberships are a scam just to get $20 dollars and they get nothing in return. They think tags must not be worth more than $1, so you're ripping them off of $19 dollars. Our tags are $5 dollars, graphic design isn't free either.

Having website with newspaper articles chronicling the club's work helps to quell those concerns I find too.


I get the frustration though, many players will play the course the club/society built - and they'll drive from an hour away to play the course every week, but won't spend $20 for a membership that will ensure course upgrades and maintenance and future courses. It still boggles me. It's one thing if the city built the course and maintains it, but if a club has built a course with it's own effort and funds, why wouldn't people support it if they play on it? If it's good enough to travel to play on, why isn't it worth $20 to ensure the course is maintained, and maybe a course closer to them is built too?
 
In many states, non-profit places like VFW, Legion or Eagles clubs have to donate their excess earnings from handing pull tabs so that's also been a source for sponsorship.
 
Never get caught taking an adult position on something, politics 101. I think your position is sound. I was always of the, we can't have the volume, due to structural limitations. But honestly, the Fins have shown it's possible, at least at some level. Your if hits a nice position, says maybe, maybe not. Somewhere between, can't happen, and we are all gonna die rich.
I'm in more of a "I honestly don't think this is going to work but I'll wish you well if you are determined to try" position. Otherwise you get called an obstructionist.

I guess the problem I have is that disc golf is such a great participation sport, and if all the money and effort that has gone into trying to make it a spectator sport had been used to foster participation we could have a lot more courses and players. That's just not the vibe of the scene, though. There were professional disc golfers before there were amateur disc golfers. Those early professional disc golfers set the tone for the scene we have. The move up/sandbagger environment of our events comes from that. It's our history. We are historically a game trying to be something we are not, not really appreciating how good we are at what we are. We are who we are.

I'll leave open the possibility that we will some day grow into something else, something that looks more like the spectator sport we have been trying to be all this time. I'm just not seeing a ton of movement that way yet.
 
[...]
I'm not going to poo-poo the efforts happening here, but the DGPT actually succeeding is not a foregone conclusion. There is a long way to go.

But hey, it's better than the ADGT, right?

This is important conversation, and there are too many people latching onto Dodge just for what he says he wants to do, paying no attention to the merit of his method or accomplishments.


I relate everything that people want to happen to disc golf back to what happened in computer gaming the last 20+ years, aka "e-sports". If you didn't know, computer gaming as a profession is a very big thing and top players make millions off it. Spectating is HUGE, hundreds of thousands of people watch major events online, and people fill arenas to watch live. It's very profitable for everyone involved, people running events and the sponsors who advertise, which is huge progress from where it came from.

Disc Golf in it's evolution seems to be about 10 years behind computer gaming. Both were/are very fringe and have no mainstream appeal to people who don't actively participate in the game(s) themselves. Both have user bases that are dispersed and need the Internet to tie them together to foster growth, but as that happens, something gets unlocked and they explode. Both the sport and the coverage are really relying on word of mouth to spread because of the isolation of it's community; you can't run ads on TV for either and pull in an audience.

I've yet to TD a disc golf tournament, but I did 'TD' a computer gaming LAN tournament 19 years ago, that was "huge" because it had over 100 people. It had a very small remote audience; the results were covered on gaming news websites and people around the world watched the demos after, which was the equivalent of what next day coverage is to disc golf. I've been through that experience of going around trying to find sponsors and asking for a prize or some cash in exchange for a modicum of exposure to this tiny ass little group of people. It's a very hard business proposition to make, but you need to be creative and you need to chip away at it and build. Patience is the biggest virtue.

The key with something that small at the time was the sponsors had to share your long term vision because they weren't getting value immediately; it's tricky but done right, you could build a relationship with them that was essentially "help us establish this now and you'll get preferential treatment later". That worked. Our earliest big sponsors sold computer hardware, made video cards, or were ISPs and that worked because they had a very direct connection to our players, and our success drove their success... so they were akin to your disc manufacturers in DG.

If I look back at the history of e-sports (I kind of hate calling it that, should be e-gaming, but that's the popular term), there are a few lessons I think DG promoters can borrow. Primarily, most of e-sports leaps forward between then and now came because of a combination of two things happening in parallel: (a) the participation base of computer games grew rapidly and (b) the viewing experience improved rapidly. (a) was the base of people you could potentially draw in, and (b) increased the percentage of those people who became spectators. You start with 1M people playing and 0.001% spectate pros, and 15 years later there's 100M people playing and 1% are watching. Numbers are made up that that's about how it went.

For disc golf, what I see happening is exactly the same , the participation (a) is growing rapidly and the PDGA is spearheading that. And the second crucial ingredient, viewing experience (b), we're seeing the rapid evolution of that with CCDG, Jomez, Smashbox and so on getting support and sponsorship from companies, and evolving coverage with more rapid turn around, increase cameras, better commentary, and live coverage increasing. THIS, above all else, is my bet for where to keep your eyes in order to grow the pro game, if that's the goal. We need the live coverage to merge with the quality of the edited coverage, with a crew in a truck throwing to multiple camera teams on multiple holes live. If I were in charge of a tour, this is where the investment is going.

Another lesson comes from what *did not* matter much in e-sports in hindsight, and I think people need to understand is over rated in disc golf too: prizes and prize money.

There always has been and always will be a best in the world, and upper echelon players, and there's no context around how good those best players are. Whether those guys toured and play full time, and/or are rich.... or they're the best of a community of entirely casual players who dedicate their spare time to the game. It doesn't matter; people always look up to them and want to watch them anyway. So long as they are close to each other, the competition is interesting. While the money does make the players better, it doesn't make the competition more or less entertaining. The point here is if Dodge goes out and is a sponsorship genius, and next year the top prize for every tour stop is 100K for the winner, those of us who already watch will perhaps watch with greater interest, but it will only marginally draw in more spectators. You won't have casual disc golfers suddenly watching a 4 hour long smashbox feed on Wednesday afternoon. We saw this in the early days of gaming, top prize went from prizes, to $2K, to $10K, to $50K and nothing changed, it was always the usual suspects at the tournaments regardless. And you'd watch the coverage and probably get to the end before you had any concept of what the prize was.

Anyway... /rant. I don't think Dodge is the savior of disc golf he thinks he is, there's no indication of that.
 
Had a really hard time dealing with Darth Vader's commentary on the bonus card today. Dude sounds like he is constantly gasping for breath.

DGPT, no one wants to hear another human being struggling for air. I'd rather hear nails on a chalkboard.
 
This is important conversation, and there are too many people latching onto Dodge just for what he says he wants to do, paying no attention to the merit of his method or accomplishments.


I relate everything that people want to happen to disc golf back to what happened in computer gaming the last 20+ years, aka "e-sports". If you didn't know, computer gaming as a profession is a very big thing and top players make millions off it. Spectating is HUGE, hundreds of thousands of people watch major events online, and people fill arenas to watch live. It's very profitable for everyone involved, people running events and the sponsors who advertise, which is huge progress from where it came from.

Disc Golf in it's evolution seems to be about 10 years behind computer gaming. Both were/are very fringe and have no mainstream appeal to people who don't actively participate in the game(s) themselves. Both have user bases that are dispersed and need the Internet to tie them together to foster growth, but as that happens, something gets unlocked and they explode. Both the sport and the coverage are really relying on word of mouth to spread because of the isolation of it's community; you can't run ads on TV for either and pull in an audience.

I've yet to TD a disc golf tournament, but I did 'TD' a computer gaming LAN tournament 19 years ago, that was "huge" because it had over 100 people. It had a very small remote audience; the results were covered on gaming news websites and people around the world watched the demos after, which was the equivalent of what next day coverage is to disc golf. I've been through that experience of going around trying to find sponsors and asking for a prize or some cash in exchange for a modicum of exposure to this tiny ass little group of people. It's a very hard business proposition to make, but you need to be creative and you need to chip away at it and build. Patience is the biggest virtue.

The key with something that small at the time was the sponsors had to share your long term vision because they weren't getting value immediately; it's tricky but done right, you could build a relationship with them that was essentially "help us establish this now and you'll get preferential treatment later". That worked. Our earliest big sponsors sold computer hardware, made video cards, or were ISPs and that worked because they had a very direct connection to our players, and our success drove their success... so they were akin to your disc manufacturers in DG.

If I look back at the history of e-sports (I kind of hate calling it that, should be e-gaming, but that's the popular term), there are a few lessons I think DG promoters can borrow. Primarily, most of e-sports leaps forward between then and now came because of a combination of two things happening in parallel: (a) the participation base of computer games grew rapidly and (b) the viewing experience improved rapidly. (a) was the base of people you could potentially draw in, and (b) increased the percentage of those people who became spectators. You start with 1M people playing and 0.001% spectate pros, and 15 years later there's 100M people playing and 1% are watching. Numbers are made up that that's about how it went.

For disc golf, what I see happening is exactly the same , the participation (a) is growing rapidly and the PDGA is spearheading that. And the second crucial ingredient, viewing experience (b), we're seeing the rapid evolution of that with CCDG, Jomez, Smashbox and so on getting support and sponsorship from companies, and evolving coverage with more rapid turn around, increase cameras, better commentary, and live coverage increasing. THIS, above all else, is my bet for where to keep your eyes in order to grow the pro game, if that's the goal. We need the live coverage to merge with the quality of the edited coverage, with a crew in a truck throwing to multiple camera teams on multiple holes live. If I were in charge of a tour, this is where the investment is going.

Another lesson comes from what *did not* matter much in e-sports in hindsight, and I think people need to understand is over rated in disc golf too: prizes and prize money.

There always has been and always will be a best in the world, and upper echelon players, and there's no context around how good those best players are. Whether those guys toured and play full time, and/or are rich.... or they're the best of a community of entirely casual players who dedicate their spare time to the game. It doesn't matter; people always look up to them and want to watch them anyway. So long as they are close to each other, the competition is interesting. While the money does make the players better, it doesn't make the competition more or less entertaining. The point here is if Dodge goes out and is a sponsorship genius, and next year the top prize for every tour stop is 100K for the winner, those of us who already watch will perhaps watch with greater interest, but it will only marginally draw in more spectators. You won't have casual disc golfers suddenly watching a 4 hour long smashbox feed on Wednesday afternoon. We saw this in the early days of gaming, top prize went from prizes, to $2K, to $10K, to $50K and nothing changed, it was always the usual suspects at the tournaments regardless. And you'd watch the coverage and probably get to the end before you had any concept of what the prize was.

Anyway... /rant. I don't think Dodge is the savior of disc golf he thinks he is, there's no indication of that.

This was a really insightful post, thank you. I'd be curious for your thoughts on this follow up: I've also thought about the e-sports model as one that can compare to disc golf, but have always thought that a driving factor behind e-sports being able to grow quickly is that potential sponsors are selling products that are more expensive than disc golf equipment, thereby bringing a larger influx of money. Is this something you've observed, or am I way off base?
 
Now that I'm paying attention to this---hey, they've accomplished something with this drama---I have a tournament format question. I couldn't readily find it on my own, so thought I'd take the lazy way out, and derail this thread with an event-related question.

In the semi-finals there are 4 cards, with the winner of each card, plus the best score among the non-card-winners, advancing to the finals.

How are the groupings for these 4 cards determined?
 
And in the meantime, rejoining the peanut gallery, I've always been a vocal skeptic of the concept of disc golf as a potential spectator sport. I have speculated that if it were to work, perhaps something other than the standard final round coverage might be the trick---something like match play, with its heightened drama.

From that viewpoint, the DGPT semi-finals and finals are interesting. A series of sprints, each round starting with everyone tied.

On the other hand, one drawback of disc golf broadcasts is the pace---waiting on the tee, walking down the fairway, drop-in putts. One solution, though an expensive one, is multi-card coverage. This seems to be set up great for that in the semi-finals, then back to a single group in the finals.

I'm not a spectator, and won't be this weekend as it will be 85 degrees and sunny here, but how does this strike those of you who enjoy watching disc golf online?
 
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