Discmania splits with Innova

[klodkrawler05]

It seems to me if they were reverse engineering the molds they wouldn't have made as much of a fuss about "thank you Innova"

At least the way it's been presented so far it feels as though Innova agreed to sell those particular molds (or at least the IP for those molds) to DM. That seems like a pretty decent win-win for both sides, Innova gets a huge influx of money from DM buying the parts to 5 discs, they can use that to ramp up production, push shiny new discs or anything else they deem prudent. Plus they can still use the pieces for their other discs, they've got plenty of business just trying to meet demand for their own discs plus other customers like Infinite. DM isn't going to be able to suddenly produce the leopard3 and the FD because they won't have access to the other pieces needed to make an FD, but DM still gains the ability to produce as many of their popular core 5 discs as they can, which helps them out as well.

It strikes me as odd that people are worried the disc won't be exactly like their favorite original when it's in their bag, yet they'll turn around and pay 3 digits for a 2nd run FD because it's a tick more stable. If the new molds are based off the same drawings as the original mold, I think we're gonna be just fine.

 

[Monkeypaws]

Not only that, but the new factory is in Skelleftea, same city as Lat64's. You get the impression from the video and press release that this is a new and independent Discmania-owned factory, but I do wonder if there's still some kind of connection with L64.

That jumped out to me as well. Maybe they bought some equipment from Lat and set up shop there.

 

[BillFleming]

Not only that, but the new factory is in Skelleftea, same city as Lat64's. You get the impression from the video and press release that this is a new and independent Discmania-owned factory, but I do wonder if there's still some kind of connection with L64.

ooooo, conspiracy <big grin - kidding, but...>. Latitude64 is currently part of Trilogy (Dynamic Discs, WestSide, Latitude64), but they are making discs for Discmania (at least for now). Discmania is setting up their own manufacturing plant and, presumably, get their molds back from Latitude64 so they can make them themselves. Why is Latitude64 making DM discs when they (L64) are part of Trilogy? Will they be leaving Trilogy to join Discmania in a partnership? And what about Yikun making a line of Discmania discs? Will they be joining with Discmania? A new 'Trilogy'?

I'm waiting to see how this plays out (to borrow the line from Uli)....could be an interesting future for Discmania. I hope it all works out for them.

 

[Jolt]

Well the "easy" way to make this work is to have Lat64 build a new part of their factory and make that part "Discmania exclusive" . .the staf and infastructure is already there

Then the old part of Lat 64 factory can go back to only make trilogy disc

 

[DanJon]

Not only that, but the new factory is in Skelleftea, same city as Lat64's. You get the impression from the video and press release that this is a new and independent Discmania-owned factory, but I do wonder if there's still some kind of connection with L64.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was some type of partnership.

Especially since they're saying the Evolution Line will be made there.

 

[Three Putt]

ooooo, conspiracy <big grin - kidding, but...>. Latitude64 is currently part of Trilogy (Dynamic Discs, WestSide, Latitude64), but they are making discs for Discmania (at least for now). Discmania is setting up their own manufacturing plant and, presumably, get their molds back from Latitude64 so they can make them themselves. Why is Latitude64 making DM discs when they (L64) are part of Trilogy? Will they be leaving Trilogy to join Discmania in a partnership? And what about Yikun making a line of Discmania discs? Will they be joining with Discmania? A new 'Trilogy'?

I'm waiting to see how this plays out (to borrow the line from Uli)....could be an interesting future for Discmania. I hope it all works out for them.

Lat64 is Trilogy. They make all the discs. They are 1/2 owners of Westside. They can't leave Trilogy, there are no discs without Lat64.

 

[Streets]

This shakeup is bringing me back to all of the wild speculation, hair-brained theories, and guesswork that was being throw around here during the 2012-2013 shakeup and Prodigy announcement. Those were fun times.

 

[ChrisWoj]

Quadrogy.

 

[Streets]

Quadrogy.

 

[ChrisWoj]

An album too popular for the albums no one listens to thread... so good.

 

[Streets]

An album too popular for the albums no one listens to thread... so good.

Right!?

 

[sjberry2017]

The Italian plastic intrigues me; gonna have to get over disliking Jussi and give it a whirl. If they're licensing the Innova IP, it's probably a win for both sides. Either way, this is definitely something they were gonna eventually have to do. One wonders if, given what we know in this thread, they bought less Innova allotments in production due to this plan, and then COVID threw a wrench in that plan.

 

[jakebake91]

Honestly, I'd believe a couple thousand dollars over 10-20k. I don't have experience in injection molding, but I buy tooling at my job for continuous extrusion. It all depends on the machine shop and where you're shopping. Disc molds are also pretty simple, relatively speaking, so the buddy could be quoting something a lot more complex than that.

Let me shed some light on this:

Trash Pandas molds,while incredibly neat, are the most minimalist/crude molds you can make.

To make an entire mold, one that you can actually run automated in a real press, you need something FARRRRR more advanced than that. An injection mold (even for basic geometry) is an incredibly complex and PRECISE assembly of a multitude of parts, made of decent-to-high grade tooling steels to withstand the immense pressure (which panda is not generating) and heat and shock involved with the molding process.

The individuals that build these things are some of the most skilled and highly trained individuals in the manufacturing trades. A couple thousand dollars probably maybe covers just their wages over the course of a tool build.

Until you've seen an injection mold up.close and really understand how and why it works, you'd never understand what goes into it.

20k sounds perfectly reasonable.



Sincerely,

probably one of the only individuals on here to ACTUALLY build an injection mold.

 

[dehaas]

Well the "easy" way to make this work is to have Lat64 build a new part of their factory and make that part "Discmania exclusive" . .the staf and infastructure is already there

Then the old part of Lat 64 factory can go back to only make trilogy disc

This is what I was expecting, but at Innova West.

I know we were all getting a little crazy with the speculation, which I think was meant as fun to pass the time.

Anybody can say what they want about the DM marketing hype, but I think by now people should understand that Jussi is a really sharp dude. He's really good at keeping things close to the hip but at the same time let's enough out to stir things up.

Couple of things that stood out from the video:

Seemed like the verbiage used was very specific when describing the Originals. I'm not saying it was a bad thing, if you're producing your own discs now definitely share your strengths or unique attributes. Focusing on those seemed to soften the blow that these are more than likely recreated Originals…which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

If these are new physical mold pieces that are very close to the original ones they might fly a bit different considering they're going with new plastic blends. Or from the other direction, the molds might feel slightly different in order to get the desired flight in the new plastic blends.

I think that will keep the demand fairly high for the current Originals. No mention of an S line equivalent yet, and all the random glow and swirly stuff will sell fetch good money.

MSRP of the P2's is $12.99 with MAP at $11.99 for D line plastic. It sounds like they really did their research on high quality plastic blends (could just be marketing hype), which I would expect will lead to a slight shift upwards in pricing. We'd discussed that in a couple of other places, and don't necessarily think it's a bad thing. Demand is definitely there, I don't see a problem introducing a slightly higher price point especially if we're getting a higher quality product. Gotta pay for that new frisbee factory somehow.

Honestly I think the thing I'm most excited about given the manufacturing announcement is still a couple years down the road. The top 5 molds will be produced first, and I'd expect the PD2 will be quickly behind as well as a couple others. There were some good molds out there that just didn't seem to hit and stick with people for whatever reason. Now they're in a position where they can make adjustments and bring some of those molds back to life. Thinking molds like the TD, DD, PDX, and a few others.

And to continue with the fun speculation:

It appears that these are fresh molds that will be extremely similar to the original Innova ones. What happens to the OG OG's? Magically become new Innova models, or branded as something new for Infinite, Millennium, or whoever?

I still think the gap in Innova produced Originals was more due to a delay in this manufacturing facility getting up and running. A transition was probably discussed, Innova then committed the extra production time to other companies, and DM was stuck in a tough spot for a bit. I don't think there was necessarily bad blood, as any of the recent DM communications had a positive tone to them.

Any chance Simon and Eagle are involved in this as part of their sponsorships? They're both locked in long term, and the Discraft/McBeth deal opened the door for everybody else down the road. It was a big move by DM, and you know those two move a ton of plastic.

 

[Horsman]

Big question, what will sell more.

Discmanias new originals or the actual originals molds under new names produced by Innova.

 

[biscoe]

Let me shed some light on this:

Trash Pandas molds,while incredibly neat, are the most minimalist/crude molds you can make.

To make an entire mold, one that you can actually run automated in a real press, you need something FARRRRR more advanced than that. An injection mold (even for basic geometry) is an incredibly complex and PRECISE assembly of a multitude of parts, made of decent-to-high grade tooling steels to withstand the immense pressure (which panda is not generating) and heat and shock involved with the molding process.

The individuals that build these things are some of the most skilled and highly trained individuals in the manufacturing trades. A couple thousand dollars probably maybe covers just their wages over the course of a tool build.

Until you've seen an injection mold up.close and really understand how and why it works, you'd never understand what goes into it.

20k sounds perfectly reasonable.



Sincerely,

probably one of the only individuals on here to ACTUALLY build an injection mold.

There you go with your firsthand knowledge again... trying to ruin it for the others...

 

[biscoe]

Big question, what will sell more.

Discmanias new originals or the actual originals molds under new names produced by Innova.

B at first.

 

[jakebake91]

There you go with your firsthand knowledge again... trying to ruin it for the others...

I know. You'd think I'd have learned by now! Someday this millennial will learn how to internet properly! Lol

But it's a hot button thing for me when people don't realize how complex something is and liken it to something someone does in their garage. It's one of those "pride in what you do" things.

Again, what that dude does is AWESOME but we aren't comparing the same things here.

 

[txmxer]

With 3D printing the process of copying a disc and refining the design to essentially identical should be relatively easy.

Of course, I don't know that it would be that hard using older manual techniques. Make castings of the original disc, build mold from that. Thinking of some of the stuff Mythbusters would do on the show.

 

[jakebake91]

With 3D printing the process of copying a disc and refining the design to essentially identical should be relatively easy.

Of course, I don't know that it would be that hard using older manual techniques. Make castings of the original disc, build mold from that. Thinking of some of the stuff Mythbusters would do on the show.

All they would need is the specs from the original disc. Then is pretty easy to redesign a mold around that. I'm guessing that DM probably has rights to the technical data and dimensions of their own discs, even if using Innova molds.

The sticky part involves any patents/copyright on exact replication of a disc. I'm guessing that they cleared that hurdle.


Ps.....that process you outlined doesn't work to make an injection mold. That's more for like a poured casting kind of thing.