drk_evns Backhand Form Thread

[slowplastic]

My shoulder/arm is sore today so I might give it a bit of a rest for a couple days. I think I already pushed it further than I should have because I've been so dead set on getting my form right.

Work smarter, not longer. If you know you don't know what change to make...then don't kill yourself repeating the same thing. Film, get feedback, etc. Can always get feedback on drills indoors if you're too sore to throw. Then think/sleep on it before going out, that step really helps.

I suggest this often, because I think this is a fantastic drill. Elephant walk at 4:40 of the link.

You will walk forward in normal posture, which automatically aligns your spine on each leg/step. It should feel almost the same during X-step, if your balance feels different then your X-step is poor. Also you need to plant and THEN swing. So you step with left foot, then begin backswing. It's so obvious because you have to lift your feet, to see if you are swinging out of sequence. So really this drill makes it so the balance of your spine over each foot is way simpler than in X-step, and it really exposes if your swing in either direction is out of sequence with planting, then having balance to leverage the swing downward. Keep in mind down toward the bottom of the pendulum swing is similar to a disc golf swing from backswing toward outward arc...it will work out when you increase pace and have a lighter object in hand so just trust it. Try to feel the weight of the whole arm/hammer together, not just weight of hammer. With a light disc, you'll have to mostly feel the arm's weight.

https://youtu.be/Y-KVWfUkQ3s?t=280

 

[slowplastic]

How do I get into that leaned back/braced against the front side position without throwing into the sky?

It'll look more subtle than that, but when your butt clears back your torso will swing forward. And somehow the angles work out by the time/space/angle the disc is released way in front of your plant foot. That part is hard to wrap my head around, but it does work out even if you set yourself up with a tilt rather than trying to keep spine upright and shoulders flat.

The main thing is it should feel smooth like when you walk. The head just moves to the new foot. Compare to keeping your head aligned on the back foot, outstretch the next leg like a kickstand and fall to it. The head will feel like it slams down/forward.

 

[drk_evns]

Okay, the elephant walk definitely showed me that I'm eager to swing and not let the step "settle."

I think it's getting easier to shift into the hip now that I'm giving it longer to settle in like you guys mentioned. I'm trying to exaggerate the motion while walking through the steps and I want to know if this is looking better:



Is this the hip motion I should be looking for?

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

Looks way better to me!

 

[sidewinder22]

How do I get into that leaned back/braced against the front side position without throwing into the sky?

Finish Position = stacked and balanced upright. Finish Position should be the same as Setup/Address Position. Your balance changes the tilt of the spiral/plane of throw.

In your brace check vid, you aren't finishing stacked upright, your front femur is angled back, pretty sure weight is on back foot.

Video from behind tee helps see the other dimension of your balance. I would also do door frame drills.

This setup position is probably going to feel very over the top to you. You should feel like you could stand all day in that position relaxed and upright balanced. Rear knee hanging from your hip deadweight next to front knee. Any move you make away from the address you should be able to mirror right back to it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IFO7J3AV5Y#t=5m

 

[drk_evns]

Something just clicked. Wow. Body feels like a recurve now. New videos in the next day or so.

 

[drk_evns]

I felt like I was missing a fundamental bit of knowledge in the throw and I definitely was. Now it feels so obvious that it's almost embarrassing :wall:

I never understood why the stagger was so bad, and I was viewing my brace as a sort of wall my body created... both things you guys saw right away. Now I'm involving my hips and understand where they fit into my sequence.

I did some field work this morning before work and immediately saw how it should be happening. Obviously my execution wasn't perfect and I've got a lot of tuning to do (I was definitely hugging myself and have to experiment with balance again), but I'm super satisfied with what I have to work on and can't wait to work on it.

Lets see if you guys see any improvement here:

 

[slowplastic]

Yeah that's much better, you can see how your follow through brings you up onto the plant instead of continuing to fold over.

This is a new thing so I would keep throwing and play with the adjustments gradually. Things to keep in mind:
-backswing is still early, as in I see your shoulders turning a bit ahead of the hips and the disc/arm is still outstretched before you plant because of this
-your head is aligned to your back leg as you are planting and then tipped forward during the throw. Try to land on your plant leg with your upper spine/head in balance and moving with you. Don't push the head forward from the back leg, have it land or feel like it glides to the front leg and just moves with you.

 

[drk_evns]

Thanks mate! I was really frustrated after yesterday but your comment was spot on. SW's elephant walk, some indoor experimentation, and some time to think/sleep was just what I needed.

There's a lot that feels erratic because this is such a new motion. My head placement is definitely strange, I still take my eyes of the target, the early backswing, staying balanced in the x-step, etc. Same with anything though, just got to keep working at it... I'm feeling really positive about it though as I feel like I know what I need to do on all of those fronts.

Seriously a huge breakthrough for me at least mentally. I suddenly understand a lot of things that SW has always told me (physically difficult to have a truly flat swing, saying my stance is too staggered, etc.)

Thank you all!

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

Yep, better - but you've got a ways to go on a couple issues.

1. Head/spine is holding onto the bad habit of wanting to do get open first.
2. Shoulders are opening too soon - that off arm is removing space that simon has available. In his frame 1, he's fully squared up and you're not. In his Frame 2, his shoulders are still ever-so-slightly closed and you're not.
3. You're getting some lateral shift, but the feet and your back knee tell you the tale. When you make a lateral shift the feeling is that you're coming in backwards. The best physical description I've found is that I'm coming down a ski slope backward and I'm sliding into a sideways stop. In Simon's Frame 1 - you can easily imagine his plant leg with a ski on it - tracking backwards. In Simon's Frame 2- he's brought the ski sideways and mashed the inside edge into the snow and he's stopped.

 

[slowplastic]

^Those images are good. I would focus on the balance/backswing on the left leg as a starting point too. If your backswing isn't right, then getting to the correct positions afterwards will be a struggle instead of automatic.

Elephant walk is still relevant, as now that you have felt some changes you can try to apply that balance to your left leg for backswing tempo and leverage. Also in elephant walk you should easily feel that you are balanced with head on the right leg when you plant to throw...pushing left to right with the head downward would not be natural in the walking motion/direction.

As you said, lots of the drills will have new meaning now that you are understanding this and different keywords will suddenly pop out of videos you have watched numerous times.

 

[drk_evns]

I hear you on all of that.

After I was doing these drives, I was practicing short upshots (100-200 feet) using the "new" form. I was able to go very slow and keep everything very controlled while still aligning to that front hip. I was able to get my head moving more appropriately and my shoulders more closed like they should be.

Doing this off arm movement feels more natural than anything else I've tried, but I totally see the weaknesses/difficulties it comes with. I'm working on it, and if I'm not able to solve the things your talking about (I have some ideas..) then I'll probably take a new approach. Not quite ready to give up on it yet.

I'll probably do some work over the next week or so and then come back to you guys with updates.

Thank you all again so much. Seriously.

 

[drk_evns]

As you said, lots of the drills will have new meaning now that you are understanding this and different keywords will suddenly pop out of videos you have watched numerous times.

I've rewatched SW's videos about 20 times... they're so exciting once you've had an epiphany and new tidbits make sense.

So excited for my next watch lol

 

[sidewinder22]

Yeah, still too staggered closed stance, striding/swaying leftward and losing hip depth or butt wipe pressure. Your chin should be level to your front leg(upright) and that will create space to lag the arm through. I'd recommend walking left to right down the pad and throwing some pure hyzers. Feel what it's like to have your head on the left side of your front foot instead of behind the right side.

What how my chin remain level to the swing of my front leg and the kick is inward of the left foot toe line toward the right slightly, creating internal torque through the hips to whip through the ball. You are kicking outward to the right away from your rear foot, so there is no internal torque or power in your kick through the ball, its more like a weak pass rather than trying to score.

 

[drk_evns]

Yeah, still too staggered closed stance, striding/swaying leftward and losing hip depth or butt wipe pressure.

I can feel the difference between the staggered and straight stride now. I see exactly how it affects the range of motion in the hips. The Shawn Clement video on hips and range of motion definitely helped. Now I'm overwriting bad muscle memory, but each time I do it it gets easier.

Your chin should be level to your front leg(upright) and that will create space to lag the arm through. I'd recommend walking left to right down the pad and throwing some pure hyzers. Feel what it's like to have your head on the left side of your front foot instead of behind the right side.

Check. I've been doing the elephant walk at work to see what it feels like to have my neck/head stacked with my spine and hip. Now I just have to translate it to the throw. Haven't tried this yet, but I know what I'm looking for now.

the kick is inward of the left foot toe line toward the right slightly, creating internal torque through the hips to whip through the ball. You are kicking outward to the right away from your rear foot, so there is no internal torque or power in your kick through the ball, its more like a weak pass rather than trying to score.

You've sort of lost me here. When you say "the kick" which part are you referring to?

 

[drk_evns]

Oh I think I see what you mean. My left foot should be pushing harder so the plant foot comes in with more speed/power, no?

 

[sidewinder22]

Oh I think I see what you mean. My left foot should be pushing harder so the plant foot comes in with more speed/power, no?

I would say it's more about balance and leveraging efficiently, rather than pushing harder.

 

[drk_evns]

I would say it's more about balance and leveraging efficiently, rather than pushing harder.

Right on. Thank you for your feedback. Helpful as always!

 

[drk_evns]

I felt the arm "lag" for the first time today. I kinda changed the way I think about the throw thanks to this new revelation I've been having (again, thanks to you guys, everything has been dead on). I can feel myself shifting from one leg to the other.

The head placement thing really helped me figure out how to time everything. Tilting it back kinda forces me to be patient and not open my shoulders. This is what is allowing me to feel the lag.

Revelations left and right!

 

[drk_evns]

Should my arm feel like it's resisting opening? If I apply the "inward pull, outward ejection" arm movement (BradleyWalker style), I feel like I'm holding the disc in the power pocket for a split second and then it fires out.


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