Dynamic Discs statement RE:Am Worlds in Emporia will be a trophy-only tournament

[jenb]

mistake acknowledged

 

[Casual Squishy]

(what i was going to say was that it wouldn't be an issue since once those players had played a tournament they'd be no longer unrated and it wouldn't matter, but now that I think about it the PDGA doesn't keep or send to TDs ratings established in tournaments if the person has never been a member..) Were any of those winners repeat winners?

 

[jenb]

(what i was going to say was that it wouldn't be an issue since once those players had played a tournament they'd be no longer unrated and it wouldn't matter, but now that I think about it the PDGA doesn't keep or send to TDs ratings established in tournaments if the person has never been a member..) Were any of those winners repeat winners?

I didn't notice, and I really don't see it as relevant. Even if every single one of those unrated rec winners was playing their first tournament, the problem remains that the rec rated players are being deprived of an opportunity to compete against similarly skilled players at least 42% of the time. In my view, they paid for something they didn't get. I know at least a few others who certainly feel that way.

 

[Casual Squishy]

There's alot invoved there though that really can't be changed if a person is a truly unrated player.
Are the people who complain people who already know the winner and think that person should'nt have played that division in the first place? (and TDs cant go on hearsay so really, is it a person the TD already knows or has proof should be playing in a higher division.)
Or is the winner a total stranger and the complainers had their hats handed to them and feel it unfair because of that.
Was the winner truly playing at their normal skill level or did they have their hottest rounds of the summer in their first tournament?
I think it's probably just a result inherent in the starting division of anything maybe. IF the players do end up playing at the advanced level or even intermediate consistantly, they're probably not going to stay in rec for more then an event or two even if they're not PDGA members.

 

[Casual Squishy]

There's alot invoved there though that really can't be changed if a person is a truly unrated player.
Are the people who complain people who already know the winner and think that person should'nt have played that division in the first place? (and TDs cant go on hearsay so really, is it a person the TD already knows or has proof should be playing in a higher division.)
Or is the winner a total stranger and the complainers had their hats handed to them and feel it unfair because of that.
Was the winner truly playing at their normal skill level or did they have their hottest rounds of the summer in their first tournament?
I think it's probably just a result inherent in the starting division of anything maybe. IF the players do end up playing at the advanced level or even intermediate consistantly, they're probably not going to stay in rec for more then an event or two even if they're not PDGA members.

There's a hidden factor in the ratings themselves, is that 900 rated player a player that throws 910s and 890s consistantly or a player that throws alot 950s and 850s, the latter can have wild win/loss ratios for tournaments and the former plods along in the same relative position from tournament to tournament. A player under the 970ish level can have some pretty wide scores in a season or be consistant as a rock.

 

[Emoney]

This makes total sense, i like this idea! Kudos DD

 

[texhop58]

The bagging will never cease to be a problem. At my last event the winner of the rec division would of finished second in intermed. The intermed winner would of win advance. The top 3 rec would of been top 5 in intermed. I never understood why a person would bag in the trophy only division.

 

[MrRaider]

Already had a house booked for worlds.. now with this BS .. i will not be goin to worlds .. for I will not pay over 1500 like i did last yr to travel and compete within a division that my RATING is at and not be able to play for anything .. when the top 20 of last yr we had I believe 8-10 players at 990 rating or above playing.. players that had won Big open tournys but didnt take the cash so they could play Am Worlds.. To allow these open players to play Am with those ratings and then tell us its trophy only.. Then they can kiss my @%% .. I hope they get a low turn out and I will be spreading the word to the crew I was goin to travel with.. What a joke

 

[18Down]

I love the idea of not paying out 50%. What I dont like is when a TD says you get a player pack value worth more than your entry is always bogus. The put five sticker in $25 in value right there.. a shirt $25 more, yeah right, 3 discs @$60 come on, and a stool @$45 no I dont think so. The actual values are no where near what you get.

 

[Paul25934]

DD for life. Rusco will be in the hall of fame someday!

 

[harr0140]

This is interesting and I will sit back and watch the discussion.

Did someone link the original thread?

 

[Tiny]

I enjoy their tournaments, just wish they'd give me the bag tag I paid for...

 

[scarpfish]

I was curious to see if that was true, so I looked at all of DD's tournaments since January 1 2012, which are supposed to be trophy only in rec. I'm not sure if that's true of the events "presented by" or "sponsored by" DD, but I have included those events in my analysis for now. I excluded the one round challenges from my analysis, because there's a lot of volatility in ratings that could produce a false impression from a single round. I also excluded supertour events, as only PDGA members can play those. What I found was that, out of 26 events, an unrated player took the rec trophy home 11 times. That's not half the time, but it's pretty close (42%).

Considering the recreational division has probably the most volatile turnover and is usually the division that first timers choose when they start playing tournaments this isn't all that surprising.

As for those unrated players throwing advanced rated rounds, I saw five of those winners throw at least one round rated over 935 (i.e., 957, 954, 946, 939, and 939). So I think the perceptions held by the rec rated players who no longer attend DD tournaments are somewhat valid, and there is obviously still a problem that was not solved by making rec trophy only.

So what exactly is the criteria here that make this a DD problem? I see nothing in your analysis here that suggests this sort of thing doesn't also happen at non-DD events. The people who won't play their events because of this might as well stop playing tournaments altogether.

If anything, I think the perception of the problem is that it is worse, as there can now only be one "winner" in rec, and the players rated below 850 feel like they stand no chance at all.

Or you could take the optimist's position that everyone is a winner considering that their entire entry fee minus fees was pretty much returned to them in plastic.

As I've said before, I think the only way to really deal with the problem is to prevent unrated players from playing ratings protected divisions. TDs have the discretion to force non-PDGA members to play a different division, and I think that's the way to go. Unfortunately, the PDGA prevents TDs from denying entry to rec to new PDGA members who don't yet have a rating. In order to really address the issue effectively, that rule needs to be changed. However, a TD can still drastically reduce the perception of bagging by at least requiring non-PDGA members to play in a non-ratings protected division for which they are otherwise eligible.

This will never happen nor should it. The PDGA would be cutting their own throats by doing it. If a TD had told me at my first event as a PDGA member that I had to play Advanced and essentially donate to prove that I wasn't an advanced caliber player, I'd have never joined.

If people in the third level of Am division play are that concerned with fair and equitable distribution of prizes, even when minus a trophy, its about as fair and equitable as you can make it, they need to rethink their priorities a bit. There are ramifications to playing in the bottom division and they are really nothing that DD or the PDGA can solve. Its usually the cheapest entry fee and termed "recreational" for a reason.

 

[LoPan12]

Considering the recreational division has probably the most volatile turnover and is usually the division that first timers choose when they start playing tournaments this isn't all that surprising.

Played in my first tournament last month...still not a PDGA member, but there was only pro, advanced, and intermediate. So I played intermediate. I got smoked. I tied for last, or second to last. And it was at my "home" course. I probably average a few over par, but he, first tournament. My first round was +11.
One round I shot was rated 907 thought It's late...and I'm sure I had a point when I started to reply...but I've lost it...:doh:

Oh! It's that even though someone might think they will do alright, or even well, they still gotta start at the bottom to see where they really stand against everyone else.

Int winner? Not rated, and he shot -11, 970/963/970/944. Second place was even.

 

[DD-Smitty]

Already had a house booked for worlds.. now with this BS .. i will not be goin to worlds .. for I will not pay over 1500 like i did last yr to travel and compete within a division that my RATING is at and not be able to play for anything .. when the top 20 of last yr we had I believe 8-10 players at 990 rating or above playing.. players that had won Big open tournys but didnt take the cash so they could play Am Worlds.. To allow these open players to play Am with those ratings and then tell us its trophy only.. Then they can kiss my @%% .. I hope they get a low turn out and I will be spreading the word to the crew I was goin to travel with.. What a joke

I don't know that a smear campaign is the best way to handle the situation.

Played my one and only Am Worlds in 2003. Finished 13th with the goal to finish in the top 10. I am sure I was beat by players that had won Open events. I may have won Open events at non-sanctioned events.

Have no clue what my payout was? Do know that I won the long drive contest, I have the trophy to prove that.

I know the players pack is going to be off the hook. The courses are going to be sweet. The experience will last a life time.

 

[captain50]

Already had a house booked for worlds.. now with this BS .. i will not be goin to worlds .. for I will not pay over 1500 like i did last yr to travel and compete within a division that my RATING is at and not be able to play for anything .. when the top 20 of last yr we had I believe 8-10 players at 990 rating or above playing.. players that had won Big open tournys but didnt take the cash so they could play Am Worlds.. To allow these open players to play Am with those ratings and then tell us its trophy only.. Then they can kiss my @%% .. I hope they get a low turn out and I will be spreading the word to the crew I was goin to travel with.. What a joke

If you actually read Jeremy's statement as opposed to going by the thread title, you would find out that there will be payouts for the winners and top finishers in adds. Here is the part of Jeremy's post dealing with the payout issue:

At the end of the event, there will be the finals and awards given out to the top finishers. These players will receive a trophy basket, or mini trophy basket, along with additional payout that can be used at the event or at the ease of your computer when back home through our online store that stocks just about everything disc golf.

If you are looking to win or place high in your respective division and make a personal gain by receiving additional payout, you still will! We just don't see the need to pay out 250 of 500 amateur players.

 

[SteezeOG]

I love the idea of not paying out 50%. What I dont like is when a TD says you get a player pack value worth more than your entry is always bogus. The put five sticker in $25 in value right there.. a shirt $25 more, yeah right, 3 discs @$60 come on, and a stool @$45 no I dont think so. The actual values are no where near what you get.

That's usually the way it is....but I take it you haven't played a DD event. I've never talked to a single player who walked away from one of their events who didn't feel like they got a lot more than they paid in. That goes for gear and the experience.

Mr. Raider- Stay in Cali bro. You're not cut out for Kansas life. We don't fold like laundry at the first sign of competition.

 

[rusch_bag]

I don't know how this wasn't done years ago. Smart man. Name another sport where amateurs get paid out anyway.

 

[MrRaider]

That's usually the way it is....but I take it you haven't played a DD event. I've never talked to a single player who walked away from one of their events who didn't feel like they got a lot more than they paid in. That goes for gear and the experience.

Mr. Raider- Stay in Cali bro. You're not cut out for Kansas life. We don't fold like laundry at the first sign of competition.

no you dont fold up like laundry.. you guys fly away with your tornados almost every year and then Oh well we goin to rebuild and again and again and again.. real bright peeps out there lol .. I might just go play de laveaga or head up to lake tahoe and play all those beautiful courses we have up there.. competition, ya i played am worlds last yr and top 20% were pro's playin Am.. enjoy tornado season KS

 

[SteezeOG]

no you dont fold up like laundry.. you guys fly away with your tornados almost every year and then Oh well we goin to rebuild and again and again and again.. real bright peeps out there lol .. I might just go play de laveaga or head up to lake tahoe and play all those beautiful courses we have up there.. competition, ya i played am worlds last yr and top 20% were pro's playin Am.. enjoy tornado season KS

Will do. We'll save you some brotato salad if you change your mind.