Dynamic Discs statement RE:Am Worlds in Emporia will be a trophy-only tournament

[Rob Martin]

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[jenb]

Have you done a comparison of DD tournaments prior to the trophy only tournament change or compared the incidents of bagging in other non-trophy only tournaments? I may have missed it, but just saying that unrated people won 40+% of the time in Rec doesn't give much context. There's no way to say if that's a higher occurrence of bagging than any other event or not.

Also, FWIW, I know plenty of rated players whose rating puts them in Rec and they've won Rec by throwing rounds above 900. Around here, at least, you need to throw about that level to win in Rec.

I thought about doing those comparisons, but I don't have the time. But also, I think, the bottom line is that there are some people who aren't happy with the trophy only for rec thing, and their complaints seem substantiated. 42% is a big number, even if it is down from before (which has not been established).

Perhaps more importantly, even if there is less bagging in rec due to the trophy only thing, there's no way that decrease makes up for having exactly one winner, especially to someone who is not going to be satisfied with a fat player's pack in lieu of a chance to compete with a realistic chance of winning something.

I really appreciate that Jeremy has tried several different things aimed at making the lower rated players happier, but I know Jeremy also appreciates honest feedback. I don't think that he is getting that feedback from the player's who have started avoiding his tournaments because of trophy only in rec.

The trophy only thing doesn't affect me as much as the guys rated under 850, since I can play FA1 when that's available. But DD doesn't offer Novice, and I have a hard time getting my spouse to go with me to DD or SLD events now (he's 840ish rated). His similarly rated friends from other tournaments also tend to avoid the trophy only rec division as well. And I know some of them were kind of excited about it at first, and gave positive feedback about it to Jeremy. But they didn't really realize until later that the unrated players were going to have such an impact on the competition for the trophy. Now they do nothing but complain about that. From what I've seen, they prefer to deal with the baggers with a chance of cashing, because it's something to aim for.

 

[topdog]

Get rid of this "what can I get out of it" mentality. Ridiculous. Do you all complain as you sit down in an NFL stadium, paying $100+ for nose bleed seats and $15 nachos? You get jacked up on that, but you enjoy the experience don't you?

Let me get this straight, you pay ~$100 to play, you get $200 in merchandise/vouchers back, you get all kinds of events and such, you get awesome courses to play, and yet there is still complaining? Heck, if I won (which I won't) and I only got a trophy, I'd be pumped. Out of 500 competitors I beat you all, I wouldn't be thinking "man, what a weekend, good thing I'm getting some more discs out of this, otherwise it wouldn't have been worth it!"

If you are complaining about the trip costs, then this event isn't for you in the first place. Play for the competition and environment; more than likely you got kicked out of your beer league softball team because you thought your tshirts sucked and you didn't get any free balls for winning last place in the playoffs.

If you are talking about the side events those cost extra just FYI. Awesome courses is your opinion. To me a long course on a ball golf course isn't awesome.

 

[scarpfish]

Have you done a comparison of DD tournaments prior to the trophy only tournament change or compared the incidents of bagging in other non-trophy only tournaments? I may have missed it, but just saying that unrated people won 40+% of the time in Rec doesn't give much context. There's no way to say if that's a higher occurrence of bagging than any other event or not.

I thought about doing those comparisons, but I don't have the time.

Yet you had time to go through 26 tournament listings, see in how many of them the rec division was won by an unrated player, punch 11 divided by 26 into a calculator, and then pronounce this finding as gospel truth that there is a sandbagging problem.

You didn't have time to see if there were any repeat offenders. You didn't have time to take into consideration that the tournament culture is a bit different in other places where DD does tournaments, and because of that, it might contribute to a higher percentage of non-rated people winning MA3.

But also, I think, the bottom line is that there are some people who aren't happy with the trophy only for rec thing, and their complaints seem substantiated. 42% is a big number, even if it is down from before (which has not been established).

The only thing that you've substantiated here is that you like to gripe. That 42% has a context behind it that you're ignoring because it shoots holes in your argument.

 

[Allurex]

no you dont fold up like laundry.. you guys fly away with your tornados almost every year and then Oh well we goin to rebuild and again and again and again.. real bright peeps out there lol .. I might just go play de laveaga or head up to lake tahoe and play all those beautiful courses we have up there.. competition, ya i played am worlds last yr and top 20% were pro's playin Am.. enjoy tornado season KS

This might be the single worst post I've seen on this forum. Hilarious.

 

[TalbotTrojan]

I really think the guys at DD are on the cutting edge of what will help grow the sport in the future. Enough Said.

 

[18Down]

That's usually the way it is....but I take it you haven't played a DD event. I've never talked to a single player who walked away from one of their events who didn't feel like they got a lot more than they paid in. That goes for gear and the experience.

Played in several actually. Give me a voucher for $15 and I get to pick what I want. Thats great. I never bashed DD I actually enjoyed the experience. I think its the idea of putting up a lot of $$ for these "major tounies" and them telling you get double the value of the cost. Bring the cost down to $20 and give me $40 in "so-called" value. With trophy only tournies don't charge $100 to give $200 in value. Its silly.

How much is this tournament anyway??

 

[SteezeOG]

Played in several actually. Give me a voucher for $15 and I get to pick what I want. Thats great. I never bashed DD I actually enjoyed the experience. I think its the idea of putting up a lot of $$ for these "major tounies" and them telling you get double the value of the cost. Bring the cost down to $20 and give me $40 in "so-called" value. With trophy only tournies don't charge $100 to give $200 in value. Its silly.

How much is this tournament anyway??

but play for a voucher? Buy yourself a gift certificate and save your time. Tournaments (especially world's) should be about the competition and experience. I just don't think a lot of tournament playing amateurs play for the same reasons I do. I hope I only encounter this on the forum and not in the tournaments I play this year.

I'm sure Jeremy would love to be able to charge you all twenty bucks but how could anyone do that with putting on everything he listed?

No disc golf TD is wearing Prada, driving a sports car, or eating lobster every night. They wear a donated dri fit, eat pizza buffets, and drive ten year old imports that get good gas mileage. No one is getting rich off this sport, guys.

 

[jenb]

Yet you had time to go through 26 tournament listings, see in how many of them the rec division was won by an unrated player, punch 11 divided by 26 into a calculator, and then pronounce this finding as gospel truth that there is a sandbagging problem.

You didn't have time to see if there were any repeat offenders. You didn't have time to take into consideration that the tournament culture is a bit different in other places where DD does tournaments, and because of that, it might contribute to a higher percentage of non-rated people winning MA3.


The only thing that you've substantiated here is that you like to gripe. That 42% has a context behind it that you're ignoring because it shoots holes in your argument.

Assumes facts not in evidence. If you want to go do some more research, be my guest, but you can't refute observations supported by evidence with bare assumptions and pure speculation. Additionally, it is difficult to see how any of your assumed outcomes would refute the clearly established fact that trophy only in rec has not prevented some unrated players from throwing one or more advanced rated rounds and making off with the trophy. Also, there is a difference between liking to gripe and not being afraid to gripe. Further, it's difficult fir me to see how someone could get so bent out of shape over someone discussing the effects of trophy only in rec at DD tournaments. Why are you acting so wounded?

 

[18Down]

but play for a voucher? Buy yourself a gift certificate and save your time. Tournaments (especially world's) should be about the competition and experience. I just don't think a lot of tournament playing amateurs play for the same reasons I do. I hope I only encounter this on the forum and not in the tournaments I play this year.

I'm sure Jeremy would love to be able to charge you all twenty bucks but how could anyone do that with putting on everything he listed?

No disc golf TD is wearing Prada, driving a sports car, or eating lobster every night. They wear a donated dri fit, eat pizza buffets, and drive ten year old imports that get good gas mileage. No one is getting rich off this sport, guys.

Neither am I but my wallet takes a hit with big entry fees. You don't understand what I'm getting at. I too want to play for the competition and experience. I would play every weekend in PDGA tournaments if overall prices were lower. Why do I need hundreds in merch just for walking in the door. I love the several trophies I have and would never give them up. You should see the stack of stickers I have since my first "experience" in 2007. Because I am charged over $75 for A-tiers but want to play every weekend I am forced to sell all the contents of my player pack to keep truckin on the "AM tour" lol. Cover trophy expenses and park fees and lets play. That is all. Ill play for cash in open when the time comes. Ams should just play.

 

[WhiteyBear]

Neither am I but my wallet takes a hit with big entry fees. You don't understand Because I am charged over $75 for A-tiers but want to play every weekend I am forced to sell all the contents of my player pack to keep truckin on the "AM tour" lol.

C and L tiers are much cheaper, so are local club minis. No one is forcing you to play in A-tiers *said in a happy respectful tone*

AM Worlds is the biggest tournament, in the world, for this game, with the governing body sanctioning it and a huge DG company running it. It's the premier event for AMs. My thought it, why even have 500 contestants? Why not just the top 144 ranked AMs? Have a "cut", only play one course. Reason they can't is simple...not enough sponsors, not even spectators.

My thought would be that the top 3 AMs in the world receive cash, and must turn pro. That's just me, but it should be a compliment to be considered that good and be compensated for your victory, and get off the AM wagon.

 

[Auto]

That's what I have in mind. Agreed

C and L tiers are much cheaper, so are local club minis. No one is forcing you to play in A-tiers *said in a happy respectful tone*

AM Worlds is the biggest tournament, in the world, for this game, with the governing body sanctioning it and a huge DG company running it. It's the premier event for AMs. My thought it, why even have 500 contestants? Why not just the top 144 ranked AMs? Have a "cut", only play one course. Reason they can't is simple...not enough sponsors, not even spectators.

My thought would be that the top 3 AMs in the world receive cash, and must turn pro. That's just me, but it should be a compliment to be considered that good and be compensated for your victory, and get off the AM wagon.

I think that is the most sensible solution. You play to place and prove your ready to move up. I have only been playing for two years and I wanted to make this my one and only am Tourney. Yes I am a girl. Not much competition around here. That being said I want more than a trophy. trophies are for kids. I want something i get use out of be, it merchandise, or money. I planned on going to worlds no matter where it was based on the the word of the 2012 worlds. To change it and no information put out there on any websites or any replys to messages sent, I was under the assumption of nothing but a trophy. I agree they shouldnt pay out the field beyond three players unless the field is over twenty people. A good players pack will compensate that loss/ entry fee is agreed. I am glad they posted that top players will recieve more than a trophy and a players pack. Oh and by the way I sure hope this Kansas rude representation is fixed by the time you have visitors in July. You guys are super sensitive to others compliants and concerns. To tell me to stay at home if I don't like the changes is pretty childish. This was a place to show and voice a lot of peoples concerns and give solutions or information to them. We are all in this for the love of the game. I grew up if you worked harder and became better you had the chance of winning. This everyone is a winner mentality and not keeping score is a joke. This is not a beer round people. There are a lot of tournaments out there that I could attend. I choose to go to the worlds. Help make my stay welcoming. Thats what a host town does.

 

[topdog]

C and L tiers are much cheaper, so are local club minis. No one is forcing you to play in A-tiers *said in a happy respectful tone*

AM Worlds is the biggest tournament, in the world, for this game, with the governing body sanctioning it and a huge DG company running it. It's the premier event for AMs. My thought it, why even have 500 contestants? Why not just the top 144 ranked AMs? Have a "cut", only play one course. Reason they can't is simple...not enough sponsors, not even spectators.

My thought would be that the top 3 AMs in the world receive cash, and must turn pro. That's just me, but it should be a compliment to be considered that good and be compensated for your victory, and get off the AM wagon.

Sorry but Am worlds isn't the biggest event. Bowling Green is.

 

[jenb]

I think that is the most sensible solution. You play to place and prove your ready to move up. I have only been playing for two years and I wanted to make this my one and only am Tourney. Yes I am a girl. Not much competition around here. That being said I want more than a trophy. trophies are for kids. I want something i get use out of be, it merchandise, or money. I planned on going to worlds no matter where it was based on the the word of the 2012 worlds. To change it and no information put out there on any websites or any replys to messages sent, I was under the assumption of nothing but a trophy. I agree they shouldnt pay out the field beyond three players unless the field is over twenty people. A good players pack will compensate that loss/ entry fee is agreed. I am glad they posted that top players will recieve more than a trophy and a players pack. Oh and by the way I sure hope this Kansas rude representation is fixed by the time you have visitors in July. You guys are super sensitive to others compliants and concerns. To tell me to stay at home if I don't like the changes is pretty childish. This was a place to show and voice a lot of peoples concerns and give solutions or information to them. We are all in this for the love of the game. I grew up if you worked harder and became better you had the chance of winning. This everyone is a winner mentality and not keeping score is a joke. This is not a beer round people. There are a lot of tournaments out there that I could attend. I choose to go to the worlds. Help make my stay welcoming. Thats what a host town does.

You are exactly right. It's not a beer round. If I'm going to burn some annual vacation to go play the courses, then burn some more to compete on them, and be out of pocket a grand or more in the process, with no realistic expectation of being able to win anything at all, and without even being allowed to drink a beer while I play, I might as well go play pro worlds.

 

[papparoc]

This will be our 8th worlds. I am curious to see how this plays out. It's nice to get a sweet players pack. I think Tulsa had the best players pack so far for us. I'll take a nice polo over a t-shirt anyday. There should still be plenty of Worlds merch to win and purchase. No matter what the deal is we are coming and hope it's the best experience ever. How often do you get a chance to win a world championship.


What is the entry fee this year?

 

[Spinthrift]

What is the entry fee this year?

This is among the specifics not yet known. Last year it varied depending on division (jrs were less), but I paid $115.

 

[JR Stengele]

As a long time TD, I have thought it odd to be calling names for 15th place in a 30 player field. I think moving toward a lower percentage of payout in AM Divisions is just fine.

THIS - Trophy only is the way it should be. Great player packs for all and then COMPETE to win...not to walk away with more plastic.

 

[Allurex]

THIS - Trophy only is the way it should be. Great player packs for all and then COMPETE to win...not to walk away with more plastic.

I agree with this.

And like someone else said about AM Worlds, a tournament with 500+ players; why should I receive some sort of prize for finishing 200th place?

Honestly, I'd feel silly accepting a prize if I didn't even finish in the top 50 at a tournament that big. Honestly, 50/500 is 10%. If I don't finish in Top 10%, why would I deserve a prize?

 

[DD-Smitty]

Some skewed numbers being thrown around.... We will not have a 500 person division.


That said.... This really will bed a great event... Can't wait to see you all in E-town..

 

[DavidSauls]

I agree with this.

And like someone else said about AM Worlds, a tournament with 500+ players; why should I receive some sort of prize for finishing 200th place?

Honestly, I'd feel silly accepting a prize if I didn't even finish in the top 50 at a tournament that big. Honestly, 50/500 is 10%. If I don't finish in Top 10%, why would I deserve a prize?

If you accept the premise that Ams are playing for prizes, and that disc golf tournaments are something like organized gambling for entries---

Then there's some philosophical rationale for paying out to 50%, or at least close to it. When you finish in the top half, you've beat more people than you lost to. You have a winning record. If you're a gambler and you win more than you lose, even slightly, you'll walk out ahead.

Of course, the practical rationale is that lowering the prize-winning threshhold brings more players in, which increases the entire prize pool; and TDs want people to attend their tournaments.