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Elver and Hiestand Park

damando_ed

Newbie
Joined
Dec 26, 2014
Messages
3
Location
Wisc
Say I remember helping put these two courses in and they were Free :thmbup:. Now I see you have to "Pay to Play":( ? Does anyone know when this happened ?

"http://www.cityofmadison.com/parks/discgolf/"
 
Say I remember helping put these two courses in and they were Free :thmbup:. Now I see you have to "Pay to Play":( ? Does anyone know when this happened ?

"http://www.cityofmadison.com/parks/discgolf/"

Not sure when it happened, but it is my opinion P2P should usually be celebrated. Give funds to maintain and improve the course, often keep an undesirable element down, demonstrates to park systems that the game can be self sustaining and can be used to encourage new courses to be built.
 
Say I remember helping put these two courses in and they were Free :thmbup:. Now I see you have to "Pay to Play":( ? Does anyone know when this happened ?

"http://www.cityofmadison.com/parks/discgolf/"

It happened 2 years ago. At first I was disappointed, but they have actually been using the funds to improve the courses. Erosion control, new baskets, redesign, etc.
 
And yet they're still fishing for volunteers to do work. 80 bucks to play all the courses in Madison is a bit out of control, IMO.
 
And yet they're still fishing for volunteers to do work. 80 bucks to play all the courses in Madison is a bit out of control, IMO.

Madison Parks (Elver & Hiestand) went pay to play in 2013. $5 daily permit...$40 season permit

Dane County Parks (Token Creek & Capital Springs) have always been pay to play (Token Creek opened in 2001...Cap Springs in 2013). $8 daily...$48 season permit

Most state and national parks charge admission fees, yet still have "Friends of..." groups and volunteer days. Pay to play isn't a silver bullet.
 
Madison Parks (Elver & Hiestand) went pay to play in 2013. $5 daily permit...$40 season permit

Dane County Parks (Token Creek & Capital Springs) have always been pay to play (Token Creek opened in 2001...Cap Springs in 2013). $8 daily...$48 season permit

Most state and national parks charge admission fees, yet still have "Friends of..." groups and volunteer days. Pay to play isn't a silver bullet.

I'll just stick to $5/day at Rollin' Ridge, I guess.

Pay to play is fine, but having to pay to use a course in a multi-use park has always seemed odd to me. They're not charging extra for the five year olds to use the monkey bars.
 
I think 40 bucks for a season pass is fine. I mean you get two course for the price. It's double that for a season pass at the ridge though the price is warrented!!
 
I think 40 bucks for a season pass is fine. I mean you get two course for the price. It's double that for a season pass at the ridge though the price is warrented!!

So...

$80 gets you a season pass at a great 18 hole course

or

$88 gets you season permits to three very nice courses (Elver, Hiestand & Token Creek) and one decent (Capital Springs) course (81 total holes).

Both seem like good deals to me.
 
The price is fine if you live close enough to take advantage, don't know that I would do that at my local as it's still pretty far.
 
I moved away from that area a year and a half ago after the first summer of P2P (summer 2013). I haven't been back since, but I should be there this summer and I'm excited to check it out to see what the changes look like. A few things...

First, like stated, they are charging $40 for an unlimited seasonal pass to both Elver and Hiestand, which are city parks. As someone else mention they don't charge people to walk through the park if they aren't throwing a disc or charge them for playing a pick-up game of basketball, soccer, or baseball. I personally feel that a city park should remain "free" in all aspects of usage because we as a group are already paying for the park with our tax money.

However, I think the P2P is really great, if, and only if, all of the collected funds for disc golf passes go only to the disc golf courses. When I bought my pass in 2013 it was pass #2,XXX. So say 2,000 passes got sold in 2013 (less than what was actually sold) and that trend continued through 2014 and into 2015. We are at roughly 6,000 passes sold at $40 a pop. That is a total of $240,000. Split that between two courses and we are at $120,000 accumulated for each course as of now.

Did each of those courses need $120,000 in improvements? It seems a little outlandish. It seems like more of a money-making tactic to me. Tack on the fact that they aren't going to stop charging for those courses. If there is zero growth on the passes sold each year and we stick with a static trend of 2,000 a summer, that's an additional $40,000 for each course every year. Will they constantly improve the courses? In what way? What exactly is this money going towards? I know people are saying erosion control, benches, maybe new tee signs, install and maintenance labor,etc, but that stuff only costs so much money. Can the city post a public data file with what improvements they are going to make and what the projected costs of each task would be? That would help justify the cost of the pass in my opinion.

Some people say it's good because it keeps the hooligans away. I beg to differ. The amount of trashy people out there playing without passes was still high. Just because speeding is illegal doesn't mean every single person drives below the speed limit signs.

Again... I'll be back in the Madison area for a short period of time this summer and there better be some serious improvements. That's a lot of money to charge people, especially year after year.

Right now I'm living in an area saturated with top-notch disc golf courses that all blow away the courses in the Madison area away and none of them cost a penny.

I understand P2P has benefited a lot of courses around the US. I just want to say... surprise me Madison. I really hope I don't come back to minimal improvement, if any. If anyone can post pictures of where they are at with improvements I'd love to take a look.
 
It's nice that the traffic has been cut down a bit, but when you only send a ranger to the course for the first 2 weeks, by the end of the year there are tons of people playing without passes anyway.

With all the money they make I was hoping to see benches and trash cans on every hole by now, and to see rangers checking passes far more often than I do. Parks department just seems really slow; they are making improvements, which is nice, but we are starting year 3 and almost nothing has happened.
 
Pay to play is fine, but having to pay to use a course in a multi-use park has always seemed odd to me. They're not charging extra for the five year olds to use the monkey bars.

Unless everyone is paying to enter the park, having to pay to play should carry with it exclusive use of the course. No pedestrians, no kids on monkey bars, no picnickers. Nothing but disc golfers on the disc golf course.

The free users are welcome to do their thing away from the disc golf course all they want. Just stay off my fairways.

If that's not the case, then what exactly are the disc golfers paying for?
 
Unless everyone is paying to enter the park, having to pay to play should carry with it exclusive use of the course. No pedestrians, no kids on monkey bars, no picnickers. Nothing but disc golfers on the disc golf course.

The free users are welcome to do their thing away from the disc golf course all they want. Just stay off my fairways.

If that's not the case, then what exactly are the disc golfers paying for?

Yeah, Elver especially has a couple holes that play right across a very highly used hill.

All those quotes above for season passes and money accrued doesn't even take into account the daily passes.
 
Still waiting for them to figure out how to cover all courses with one pass. They have it figured out for the boat landings across more municipalities and locations with a much larger group of users, so a few parks shouldn't (hypothetically) be a problem.

I'll stay buy both because I enjoy playing all the courses, but it is still fairly steep.
 
I wish this idea was implemented in the Chicago area...sadly there are only a handful of course that people might pay to play. Its their land and they can do what they (and the taxpayers) want with it. If you don't like it then don't go. 80 or 88 is not a lot of money for locals IMO although if I paid taxes in that area I do see a minimal argument there. Also elver and hiestand IMO don't really come into conflict with other park users if my memory serves me correctly.

If you live there and don't want pay...I would factor in the cost of gas to play somewhere else. Something tells me its gonna be cheaper to stick around.
 
I moved away from that area a year and a half ago after the first summer of P2P (summer 2013). I haven't been back since, but I should be there this summer and I'm excited to check it out to see what the changes look like. A few things...

First, like stated, they are charging $40 for an unlimited seasonal pass to both Elver and Hiestand, which are city parks. As someone else mention they don't charge people to walk through the park if they aren't throwing a disc or charge them for playing a pick-up game of basketball, soccer, or baseball. I personally feel that a city park should remain "free" in all aspects of usage because we as a group are already paying for the park with our tax money.

However, I think the P2P is really great, if, and only if, all of the collected funds for disc golf passes go only to the disc golf courses. When I bought my pass in 2013 it was pass #2,XXX. So say 2,000 passes got sold in 2013 (less than what was actually sold) and that trend continued through 2014 and into 2015. We are at roughly 6,000 passes sold at $40 a pop. That is a total of $240,000. Split that between two courses and we are at $120,000 accumulated for each course as of now.

Did each of those courses need $120,000 in improvements? It seems a little outlandish. It seems like more of a money-making tactic to me. Tack on the fact that they aren't going to stop charging for those courses. If there is zero growth on the passes sold each year and we stick with a static trend of 2,000 a summer, that's an additional $40,000 for each course every year. Will they constantly improve the courses? In what way? What exactly is this money going towards? I know people are saying erosion control, benches, maybe new tee signs, install and maintenance labor,etc, but that stuff only costs so much money. Can the city post a public data file with what improvements they are going to make and what the projected costs of each task would be? That would help justify the cost of the pass in my opinion.

Some people say it's good because it keeps the hooligans away. I beg to differ. The amount of trashy people out there playing without passes was still high. Just because speeding is illegal doesn't mean every single person drives below the speed limit signs.

Again... I'll be back in the Madison area for a short period of time this summer and there better be some serious improvements. That's a lot of money to charge people, especially year after year.

Right now I'm living in an area saturated with top-notch disc golf courses that all blow away the courses in the Madison area away and none of them cost a penny.

I understand P2P has benefited a lot of courses around the US. I just want to say... surprise me Madison. I really hope I don't come back to minimal improvement, if any. If anyone can post pictures of where they are at with improvements I'd love to take a look.



The gold old "we pay taxes" argument. It's not just disc golf. Madison Parks charges fees for cross-country skiing, dog parks, boat launch access and golf courses. They also charge organizations that run soccer, Ultimate, softball, baseball tournaments,etc. It's not just disc golf and it's not just parks. Toll roads come to mind. The people using the disc golf course are paying for its maintenance and capital improvements. This makes a lot of sense to me. Side note...to keep the sport accessible to youth, anyone under age 17 plays for free.

"Money making tactic"...give me a break. Just the man sticking it to you, right? Yes, total revenue from 2013 was approximately $80,000 (a little less actually), but you are over-simplifying this. First, you're ignoring maintenance, labor, etc. You are assuming 100% of revenue are for capital improvements. Second, you are already counting 2015 revenue. It doesn't work that way. For example, a few people complained last spring that they didn't see big improvements after one year of pay to play. Madison Parks had no idea what the first year would bring...$20k...$40k...$60K...$80K. They can't spend money they don't have so they had to wait until fall of 2013 before they starting making some significant improvements to Elver. They couldn't do anything during the winter so there wasn't much to look at, but improvements started and a lot more was in the works. For the sake of your argument, could $120.000 be put into each course...yes...and then some.

All of the revenue (season, daily and some course reservations for events) are segregated and non-reverting funds. All of the disc golf revenue goes back into disc golf. That's the segregated part. Any money in the account at year's end carries over to the next year for capital improvements, expansion, etc. That's the non-reverting part.

Someone else mentioned benches. Good ones aren't cheap. Really good park benches made to stand the test of time cost a lot...like over $1,000. I was surprised too. Token Creek opened in 2001 and invested in good benches and they still look great today. Both Elver and Hiestand got a few new benches last year. They will get a few more this year and a few more next year, etc. Slow and steady. The pay to play era is literally two years old. Give it 3-5 years and you'll see big changes. Hiestand is getting new baskets this year. Elver will probably get new baskets in 2016. Based on your lofty expectations, you'll probably be disappointed with what you see this year.
 
Hiestand was a dump a few years ago when us disc golfers were in charge of clean up. Ill pay 40 a year just for the trash removal. Anything else is just a bonus I feel.
 
When I moved to Madison two years ago, I was totally turned off by a city charging to play disc golf in it's public parks. I used to play 3-5 rounds a week in central Illinois (where I'd argue that the Peoria courses are better designed, cleaner, and in general better shape than Madison), but I've cut that down to maybe once a month in Madison.

It's unfortunate that the city does this and I'm ardently against it. The good news is that Bird's Ruins is free, not too far away, and makes for a really fun 18. :)

p.s. As an additional argument, the zoo is free in Madison and taking care of a giraffe costs significantly more than a DGC...
 
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Someone else mentioned benches. Good ones aren't cheap. Really good park benches made to stand the test of time cost a lot...like over $1,000. I was surprised too. Token Creek opened in 2001 and invested in good benches and they still look great today. Both Elver and Hiestand got a few new benches last year. They will get a few more this year and a few more next year, etc. Slow and steady. The pay to play era is literally two years old. Give it 3-5 years and you'll see big changes. Hiestand is getting new baskets this year. Elver will probably get new baskets in 2016. Based on your lofty expectations, you'll probably be disappointed with what you see this year.


Right on. I wasn't trying be a negative Nancy about the P2P. I am totally all for it, just impatient. Stoked to play the new holes/basket placements at elver this year!

For the new baskets at heistand, are they just replacing them? Was any thought put into leaving 2 sets up like Evansville? I'd be all for it.
 
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