Finally figured "it" out...

[PerpetualNewbie]

Only word of advice I can offer after reading through all this is to keep up with practice and don't get discouraged when you suddenly lose distance. When I first started throwing far it felt great and effortless, but then went away.

Yeah, I've actually had this happen three times already! Thankfully, I've managed to isolate and identify the final key to the timing of my rhbh shot this time. Before when it would "click" I couldn't figure out exactly what was different, and therefore could not bring it back when it "left" me.

This time is different... a couple days ago I felt myself strong-arm a throw during a round, and I was able to mentally and intentionally correct what I did and return to correct timing/form, and I haven't had another strong-arm throw since.

Famous last words, but I feel confident that this time "I've got it".

The point is until you drill all this into muscle memory, it will come and go. You got over the hardest part - learning how to actually throw the throw. The only challenge in front of you now is to not let your confidence take a blow when the throw magically goes away as quickly as it appeared.

Yes, been there, done that - several times in fact! Soooo frustrating!

That's normal. Don't try to force anything since the timing is so crucial it's almost impossible to make things happen "on purpose". You can't will it, you just have to relax and let your body do its thing.

Sorry, but I disagree with this. As I stated above, I can now identify by feel the correct timing, and more importantly I know what to tell myself and what to do if I start slipping back...

Glad you picked it up so fast! Keep it up!

~700+ rounds in 10 months to get to this point sure doesn't feel like it was "fast", lol, but thanks for the encouragement!

 

[wr758]

so let me get this right (player still learning the game) u want to have your pivot on the heal? because that might be the piece i am missing i am thrown big distance drivers about 330, fairways about 300, mids 275, and putters well maybe 200

 

[Mocheez]

Yes, you absolutely want to pivot on your heel. Land with your right toe on the ground and heel up pointing at the target. Then roll on the inside part of your foot till your heel hits the ground and your foot is at a 90 degree angle to the target. Then lift your toes up and pivot on your heel.

 

[wr758]

Yes, you absolutely want to pivot on your heel. Land with your right toe on the ground and heel up pointing at the target. Then roll on the inside part of your foot till your heel hits the ground and your foot is at a 90 degree angle to the target. Then lift your toes up and pivot on your heel.

Thank u SOOOO much that makes a lot of sense. :clap: i will b out working on this ASAP. this is gonna change the game, because i was throwning off of a stiff front leg thinking that was correct (like ball and stick golf)

 

[PerpetualNewbie]

Yes, you absolutely want to pivot on your heel. Land with your right toe on the ground and heel up pointing at the target. Then roll on the inside part of your foot till your heel hits the ground and your foot is at a 90 degree angle to the target. Then lift your toes up and pivot on your heel.

Yup, that's pretty much it, the only thing I might disagree with is the "lift your toes up" part, which I don't consciously do... with my weight on the heel and leg braced the foot will spin without the need to try and lift the toes, at least for me.

 

[BirdieMachine]

Yup, that's pretty much it, the only thing I might disagree with is the "lift your toes up" part, which I don't consciously do... with my weight on the heel and leg braced the foot will spin without the need to try and lift the toes, at least for me.

The toes do lift but the momentum keeps shifting forward after the foot rotated and facing the target its planted and weight is more neutral. One thing you don't want to do is only spin on the heel as that will leave you hanging back with a poor weight shift and plane.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leEV-iMO52I

 

[wr758]

I wanna thank all of yall it means a lot to get solid advice from people :clap:

 

[bfowler]

Ok, so after that full round playing this way, I think a better description is "to not turn my UPPER body back too soon and not turn my lower body as much as I was"...

I now realize that it was really my upper body that I am now delaying the turning of, which helped properly time the apex of my reachback with my front foot bracing and the occurrence of "the move" that Sidewinder is always talking about. This is maybe a .5-1 second difference from what I was doing before, but the result is huge with regards to power and balance. I am also now no longer falling off the teepad or falling forward after release, which will be a big plus during melting snow and spring rains because the end of most teepads around here are mud pits

Can you explain this in more detail.

Are you delaying your turn back away from the basket or delaying your turn towards the target as you shift your weight forward?

And what is "the move"?

When you are shifting your weight forward where are your hips and shoulders in relation to the basket?

A lot of my timing I base off my heel plant. I try to not start to turn my upper torso until my heel comes down. By that time my hips have already pulled my arm/disc to near my left pec and my weight has shifted forward.

Could you break it down some more?

Thanks. I've taken so many steps backwards and forwards it's not even funny.

 

[BirdieMachine]

Can you explain this in more detail.

Are you delaying your turn back away from the basket or delaying your turn towards the target as you shift your weight forward?

And what is "the move"?

When you are shifting your weight forward where are your hips and shoulders in relation to the basket?

A lot of my timing I base off my heel plant. I try to not start to turn my upper torso until my heel comes down. By that time my hips have already pulled my arm/disc to near my left pec and my weight has shifted forward.

Could you break it down some more?

Thanks. I've taken so many steps backwards and forwards it's not even funny.

I know from video taping myself in ball golf feel vs real are often not the same. The only way you can for sure tell is on video with high speed camera to slow it down. What he feels is working for him may or may not be reality what is actually happening. If we had his before and after on video we could see the difference.

So I do recommend using video on yourself so you can see in detail exactly what is happening.

 

[bfowler]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvGudQYfjD8#t=83

In this video from Sidewinder at around 46-47 you can see him shift his weight forward but his upper body is still more turned back towards away from the target. His heel has already planted and it's like he pull directly forward on an imaginary rope for a second and then turning his upper body to throw.

My shoulder start to turn at the same time my toe hits the ground on my plant foot. As my heel goes down my shoulders are already turning. By the time my heel is all the way down my hips and shoulders are inline with my target and my elbow is bent 90 degrees straight in front of my chest.

So I feel like I'm shifting and turning my body all in one motion instead of pulling my disc with my torso/hips/weight shift and then when my heels plants and I'm braced only then does my shoulder really starts to turn.

I should weight shift first, then rotate and explode. Not turn and rotate AS I'm shifting my weight, then exploding.

Watching (and actually doing) Sidewinders Door frame exercises really makes me feel the difference in power where to put my weight.

 

[PerpetualNewbie]

Can you explain this in more detail.

Are you delaying your turn back away from the basket or delaying your turn towards the target as you shift your weight forward?

Ok, the best I can describe it is that my turn away from the target is now in two parts: first my lower body turns as part of my first step towards the target and through my x-step, but I'm "resisting" turning my upper body until feel I "have to"... before I was trying to turn my entire body as one. This leads to a "windup", spring-back and un-winding that I feel through my core now.

And what is "the move"?

Search Sidewinder's posting history and you'll find him discussing it and links to a youtube video that kind of covers it... his door-frame videos can help you feel this as well. Essentially it's your butt shifting towards the target before you turn and pull through. After a couple of back-to-back rounds I actually feel a bit of soreness in my hip area now, like I'm working a muscle that I haven't been before.

When you are shifting your weight forward where are your hips and shoulders in relation to the basket?

Sorry, right now I can't tell you this... I picked up a GoPro and will be recording some 720p 120fps video that I'll be using to better break down my form and continue tweaking to reach my goal of 450'.

Could you break it down some more?

The above is the best I can do right now. I know I'm not doing it justice, but the two-part turn is the only way I know how to say it. For breakdowns and better descriptions I recommend reading anything and everything Sidewinder writes, watching his videos as well as every pro video you can find, and also reading through the technique threads on discgolfreview.com forums. Beyond that, it is just practice, practice, practice... sorry I'm not more help

Thanks. I've taken so many steps backwards and forwards it's not even funny.

Trust me, I know the feeling... just know that the breakthrough is out there if you keep working at it.

I have no illusions that my form is now or ever will be "perfect" or top pro level, but I think my 450' goal is attainable as I can consistently hit over 400' now.

 

[BirdieMachine]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvGudQYfjD8#t=83

In this video from Sidewinder at around 46-47 you can see him shift his weight forward but his upper body is still more turned back towards away from the target. His heel has already planted and it's like he pull directly forward on an imaginary rope for a second and then turning his upper body to throw.

My shoulder start to turn at the same time my toe hits the ground on my plant foot. As my heel goes down my shoulders are already turning. By the time my heel is all the way down my hips and shoulders are inline with my target and my elbow is bent 90 degrees straight in front of my chest.

So I feel like I'm shifting and turning my body all in one motion instead of pulling my disc with my torso/hips/weight shift and then when my heels plants and I'm braced only then does my shoulder really starts to turn.

I should weight shift first, then rotate and explode. Not turn and rotate AS I'm shifting my weight, then exploding.

Watching (and actually doing) Sidewinders Door frame exercises really makes me feel the difference in power where to put my weight.

Yeah you need to sequence it correctly to get a higher power transfer. You should be moving from foot, hips, shoulders, arm then wrist. If you are not moving correctly in order you will have power loss.

You can think of the throw like a whip. A whip itself speeds up to 30 times the initial speed by the taper in the whip breaking the speed of sound. Because a whip tapers the power keeps multiplying down the chain. Think of the power moving through the chain from the foot all the way through the wrist.

 

[PerpetualNewbie]

Well heck, I hadn't even seen that "the man" had commented in this thread until I went back and started re-reading it from the beginning! Thanks!

Hi, sounds like you are starting to get it now. There's a reason it's called "the move", 99% of the vids I see in the critique don't get it. They turn backward too early...

This is it EXACTLY, and is what I was trying to describe in my last post when I tried describing it as a "two part" turn from the target...

...and don't properly load the core against the rear leg and everything from there is screwed. When you start to get "the move" it adds a whole new dimension of accuracy and efficiency from the improved core torque and rhythm. The door frame and hershyzer drills are to help with the move. Perfecting it is a matter of practice.

Now that I know what it feels like and what to look for I can actually see it when watching videos of the pros, like the driving video BirdieMachine linked in post #26 in this thread. They all show it but to me it seems really pronounced with Eric McCabe and and Will Schusterick...

 

[bfowler]

Now that I know what it feels like and what to look for I can actually see it when watching videos of the pros, like the driving video BirdieMachine linked in post #26 in this thread. They all show it but to me it seems really pronounced with Eric McCabe and and Will Schusterick...

Wow! I can see it. It's sidewinder Hershyzer drill. As you go through your x step you lead with your butt cheek!

Sidewinder posted a video a while back on this and the ball golfer keep saying it was all about presetting the booty. I practiced it for a while but I was trying to do it way too late.

 

[bfowler]

I want to give a big thank you to Newbie for stating this thread and Sidewinder for all his help and comments in helping disc golfers get better.

Between this thread and Sidewinder's door frame drills I've had a break through. Earlier in the week after reading this thread I practiced what I thought would help. Delayed turning and other things. Nothing was really clicking to help me improve. I revisited this thread and watched and did Sidewinder's door frame drills.

I played 2 round Saturday but I had not had any time to put what I thought I'd learned from the door frame videos into practice and trying as I played doesn't work. After my first round I was able to do some field work waiting on a friend. After a few throws.

Lasers. Every. Single. Throw.

It was kind of amazing. I wasn't getting a ton of extra distance. Still 300-350 but it was effortless and I was hardly pulling with my arm at all. On the next round I was up and down but I had a number of holes that are very skinny fairways and I birdied 3 of them which I don't do often.

I can't wait to put more of this into action.

My big change was I was turning at the same time I was shifting my weight instead of shifting and then turning. My old way it was impossible to get my timing for my hips and torso into the throw. It was all arm and wrist. Now I feel very confident that a big jump in my game is right around the corner.

 

[PerpetualNewbie]

My big change was I was turning at the same time I was shifting my weight instead of shifting and then turning. My old way it was impossible to get my timing for my hips and torso into the throw. It was all arm and wrist. Now I feel very confident that a big jump in my game is right around the corner.

:hfive: Congrats bfowler! That "effortless" description sure sounds like what I experienced as well!

This weekend I won my first tournament in the intermediate division, another milestone on my road to open! My driving was pretty much spot on for both rounds and left me in good shape all day, except when I overthrew a few holes. The course was near a small lake and stream, and there were a LOT of other am-division guys going in the water off the tee, but I didn't have a single disc get wet...felt good.

The only thing I'd caution is to not neglect other parts of your game! I've been working on my approaches (see my other thread for that) as well but had been neglecting my putting the last couple weeks and was very tentative with putts my first round... I left four birdies and took one bogie purely from missed short putts inside the circle! Second round I really bore down and putted with authority and moved up from the bottom of the top card to take the win!

Love this game, challenges and all!

 

[Krinkncrank]

My big change was I was turning at the same time I was shifting my weight instead of shifting and then turning. My old way it was impossible to get my timing for my hips and torso into the throw. It was all arm and wrist.

This seems like the key to the puzzle for sure. Sequencing the weight shift.

 

[bfowler]

This seems like the key to the puzzle for sure. Sequencing the weight shift.

It's definitely one of them and it can be very small changes. Just pulling on the door frame showed me the pressure on the inside of my back foot was off. Some things are even more subtle than that. Just thinking of pulling the door frame with balance made me approach things differently.

I now find it funny that I don't fall forward as much after a drive as much as spin. I used to have a huge problem following through. My arm just stopped right after the throw and it was so hard to keep it going. Now, I could easily injure myself if I did try to stop my arm. It's also cool because I end up know in that classic Climo pose after he throws a drive.

The leading with the butt thing has also helped me in taking a much bigger step in my plant but it doesn't feel weird anymore. Feel more natural. My beginning steps are still really slow until after my weight shift.

More than anything else it's understanding what I'm supposed to be doing.

 

[tylerc]

read this thread a few days ago and incorporated some new things into the form like delaying the turn as u guys have been talking about. and while I was out doing field work for a few hours I did some max distance throws before leaving and I hit a fence about 5 feet up from 500 feet away! it was awesome! I have never thrown that far flat ground and no wind. I hit the fence that high from 500 feet twice and a third hit before it and skipped into the fence. it was awesome! I will definatly be working on this more!

 

[PerpetualNewbie]

read this thread a few days ago and incorporated some new things into the form like delaying the turn as u guys have been talking about. and while I was out doing field work for a few hours I did some max distance throws before leaving and I hit a fence about 5 feet up from 500 feet away! it was awesome! I have never thrown that far flat ground and no wind. I hit the fence that high from 500 feet twice and a third hit before it and skipped into the fence. it was awesome! I will definatly be working on this more!

Uhmm...wow! 500' !?!? Most impressive, what discs were you using to get that distance?

Can definitely appreciate that, but I'll be happy to hit 450' this summer and be deadly accurate with approaches and putting...