Great article about AM divisions.

[DavidSauls]

Hi all:

I'm the publisher and founder of Ultiworld (and UW Disc Golf). I'm also the co-host of the Upshot podcast.

I know the conversation has moved beyond the original discussion, but I was pointed to this thread and just wanted to mention a couple of things.

By almost any measure, Tyler's op-ed has accomplished its goals. It's the most-read article on the website in the last month, people are engaging with and discussing it, and there are plenty of people who agree and disagree. This was not some drive-by, half-baked idea -- the author has thought about this and spent time crafting an opinion piece about it.

If you disagree, that's fine! But accosting the author (or the editor of the piece) for not including the arguments that you would make for preserving the status quo is not fair. Not everyone is going to agree with opinion columns. That's the point of them.

I'm not the day-to-day editor of the site, but I can assure you that we certainly welcome a wide range of ideas and want to be a source of both news and insightful commentary. If you are interested in submitting an op-ed that advocates for the current system (or any other topic), please get in touch: we would gladly work with you to publish it. You can reach us (and me directly) at discgolf at ultiworld dot com.

Cheers!

Thanks for joining us.

I don't mean to accost the author. I appreciate the effort. However, I thought the article's weakness was not stating the problem, why it was a problem, or to whom it was a problem, before offering a solution.

 

[_MTL_]

This assumes the TD is being compensated based on profits from merch. There are numerous events where I know that TDs are not getting anything from the merch margin. (The vendor is a separate entity.) We need to quit trying to cram events into the mold where TDs acquire their prizes at wholesale rates.

whoa, thats a terrible terrible terrible terrible deal with the TD made.

Every vendor deal I've ever made is typically about 75% of the cost.

 

[DavidSauls]

It's worth a shot. I get where you are coming from and in this model, yes, a TD should take a portion of the entries.

However, if a TD is truly in it for the money, they won't use this model (if they are smart).

Only matters if attendance is lower.

(1) Charge $50, give $50 in players pack and payout, keep $15 per player from the margin.

(2) Charge $15, give $0 in layers pack and payout, keep $15 per player.

Same "profit" per player.

Lots less work.

And TD's don't have to be "truly in it for the money" to get paid some for their time. Or to earn money for the club or course, or pay $1,000 course rental fee, or whatever they're doing with that money.

 

[_MTL_]

Only matters if attendance is lower.

(1) Charge $50, give $50 in players pack and payout, keep $15 per player from the margin.

(2) Charge $15, give $0 in layers pack and payout, keep $15 per player.

Same "profit" per player.

Lots less work.

This model assumes that the same number of people will show up in scenario 2 as 1.

 

[DavidSauls]

This model assumes that the same number of people will show up in scenario 2 as 1.

Yes, that's what I said.

But that's a gamble TDs take with all tournament decisions---divisions offered, number of days, course, etc. Sometimes we make them out of principle. Sometimes just to try something new. The rest of the time, we're guessing at what will draw the most players.

 

[JC17393]

I've been running a B-tier tournament for 15 years where the Am entry is $20 and everyone gets a disc+ as a player pack. As a TD, I would GLADLY jump on board with a $10 entry, no player pack, no payouts, trophies only situation. And I imagine I'd get the same sell-out crowds I get now. No fronting a player pack order...where do I sign?

 

[_MTL_]

I've been running a B-tier tournament for 15 years where the Am entry is $20 and everyone gets a disc+ as a player pack. As a TD, I would GLADLY jump on board with a $10 entry, no player pack, no payouts, trophies only situation. And I imagine I'd get the same sell-out crowds I get now. No fronting a player pack order...where do I sign?

There's nothing that says you can't do this right now. You are choosing to offer it the other way.

Let me know how it goes. I'm truly interested.

 

[JC17393]

There's nothing that says you can't do this right now. You are choosing to offer it the other way.

Let me know how it goes. I'm truly interested.

B-tier. I can't run a B-tier with no player pack. Obviously I can do this with a C-tier, and have done so on many occasions over the years. If the PDGA were to waive the player pack requirement provided the entry fee was below X dollars, that would be the best of all worlds.

 

[_MTL_]

B-tier. I can't run a B-tier with no player pack. Obviously I can do this with a C-tier, and have done so on many occasions over the years. If the PDGA were to waive the player pack requirement provided the entry fee was below X dollars, that would be the best of all worlds.

ah, yes. correct.

 

[DavidSauls]

B-tier. I can't run a B-tier with no player pack. Obviously I can do this with a C-tier, and have done so on many occasions over the years. If the PDGA were to waive the player pack requirement provided the entry fee was below X dollars, that would be the best of all worlds.

Can you do it as a C-tier, if you don't have greens fees or other pass-through expenses to account for the rest of the entry?

 

[JC17393]

Can you do it as a C-tier, if you don't have greens fees or other pass-through expenses to account for the rest of the entry?

Without greens fees in the traditional and presumably intended meaning of the term, probably not.

I'm sure that greens fees are included by the PDGA as an allowable pass-through fee because of private, pay-to-play courses like mine (and yours). But if they want to allow for a more liberal interpretation of the term, and consider greens fees as a general TD fee from which he pays for use of the course (public or private) and can use the remainder how he sees fit including paying himself, then it could work under current rules.

 

[DiscFifty]

I'm proposing low-entry ($10-$25), no players pack, no prize payouts, trophy-only; money to TD (club, etc.) for expenses, PDGA fees, profit, whatever. For my entry, I get a tournament.

You don't see many people paying $10 to show up and play for absolutely nothing. Maybe you're right. Let's try it. Maybe I'm in a minority, but a large enough minority to make it work. Earlier in this thread people cited events that filled under just this formula. Lots of other amateur sports manage to work this way: pay your entry, compete in an organized event, period. Maybe disc golf can't; maybe we're too addicted to "stuff". But could we at least try, and see?

You should start a new thread based on this. I think it's time to consider low cost entry fees, no player pack, no merch winnings, JUST trophy only..like you said. But it would need to be a decent trophy, not a framed print of the event poster, etc.

 

[brutalbrutus]

The etched glass ones I have seen are pretty nice. Also have seen a few where they mounted a tourney stamped disc on a wooden plaque that were pretty decent... Your basic youth soccer team gilded plastic trophies I think would be rather meh...



… I bet MartinD could make some sweet trophies.:thmbup:

 

[tdschrock1]

I would like to apologize to Tyler because Teemkey is 100% correct. The responsibility for the quality of the published writing belongs to the editors of Ultiworld, not Tyler.

Tyler did a great job starting a discussion. From his discussion, many folks learned that the PDGA already allows tournament directors a great deal of flexibility when running events. Players and potential TD's learned events DON'T have to offer all the Am divisions. We all learned MA4 doesn't exist in North Carolina yet it is a thriving division in Illinois.

Tyler is welcome to lead by example and try his divisional ideas at his next PDGA events. Then Tyler can let us know how well it works. It could be a perfect solution for events in his area.

Thank you for the discussion Tyler.

Thanks for your response. I just circled back to this forum after being away for a few weeks.

I am very glad that I authored the piece and helped spark this conversation. I would love if the PDGA were willing to to a bit more to set precedents and expectations as well as clearly lay out good options for TDs and help support and resource them.

 

[Steve West]

You should start a new thread based on this. I think it's time to consider low cost entry fees, no player pack, no merch winnings, JUST trophy only..like you said. But it would need to be a decent trophy, not a framed print of the event poster, etc.

For older players, the trophy is a negative. They have enough valueless stuff in their house that is too "precious" to throw away.

They want the experience. Ratings make it real. On-line archives make it last.

 

[Casey 1988]

At one point didn't PDGA have a D-tier events that were made to set up just this way some of you want? Why did the PDGA get rid of them?

 

[krupicka]

D tiers were for developmental areas i.e. areas that were new to the PDGA tournament scene.

 

[JC17393]

Yes, D-tiers were a short-lived tier aimed at growing interest in the PDGA in areas that were light on PDGA membership and/or events. The highlights were a low sanctioning fee ($25), low per-player fee ($1 I believe), and no non-member fees. Other than that, it gave no more freedom of format than you have at a C-tier, with all the same requirements.

D-tier was replaced by the Competitive Endowment Program.

 

[DiscFifty]

For older players, the trophy is a negative. They have enough valueless stuff in their house that is too "precious" to throw away.

They want the experience. Ratings make it real. On-line archives make it last.

For older players who have been playing for decades I would agree. For older players, relatively new to the game, I would disagree.

 

[Celos]

Dynamically generated divisions based on the participants would be pretty cool. Put people with roughly similar ratings together. Automatically created divisions would obviously have outliers, but so do current fixed divisions and the experience would be better for the majority.