Help me reach 500'

[Lumberjack504]

Thanks for the replies, all. Brychanus, I'm not sure the hip is the cause. If I get in a standing position with my front plant foot facing slightly towards target from neutral, my hips are severely restricted from turning back, and my front knee cannot turn inwards. By simply rotating my front plant foot slight away from target from neutral, I can easily rotate hips another 45-degrees backwards and I also can internally flex the knee, as is shown in loading the bow and arrow.

The difference is subtle (the change in foot anglemis only 20-30 degrees) but I think I'm still a bit "horse-stances". This is restriction in hip movement is natural and not due to mobility, I think.

https://www.secretgolf.com/videos/vintage-vault/full-swing/full-swing--mike-maves/the-navel-close-up

1:02 in the vidya linked above could help with figuring out the hip swivel in the backswing

 

[Icarus]

I feel a bit dumb. I didn't know I could alter my filming frames per second, and was doing the standard 30 fps. Below is a first video of a 240 fps throw. I've been working on planting more closed.

Any improvement?

 

[sidewinder22]

Yeah, still more of the same though.

 

[Icarus]

Yes, there is improvement, but still the same issues you noted before? As in, needing to stride more centered in all dimensions?

Also, should I be concerned about how early I'm reaching full extension on my throwing arm?

 

[sidewinder22]

Yeah there is improvement - right path, but you need to keep exaggerating things especially with posture and flow. Your rear foot/knee/hip is preventing you from completing the backswing and turning the rest of your body further back, which is why you perceive your "full extension" as early.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogonOY1DoHU#t=40m

 

[Icarus]

I tried standing up today more, staying more centered during the throw. Any improvement? Ignore the plant foot angle - none of this is muscle memory right now, so when I focus on one thing the others revert to standard.

 

[lostDoughnut]

in the first video your plant foot lands, and then when it moves, it actually gets pulled away from the basket (its very subtle). or maybe its that you spin on the toe and it moves the heel away from the basket making it look that way. for me when i rotate on my toe my weight hasnt fully settled on my plant foot, or my center of gravity is too forward on the teebox. it kinda looks like your pulling with your shoulder. or another possible explanation is you are hinging on your shoulder

images below are taken from the 2nd video. i wanna say your upper spine is slightly tipping towards the basket a bit much (very subtle) and because of that your upper body caves over the front foot causing rotation on the toe. yellow line in 2nd photo shows a better position

 

[Icarus]

lostDoughnut,

Yeah, I've noticed this before. I am actually rotating on mid-foot, and this rotation comes after the disc leaves my hand. If you watch my body momentum during the throw at 0.25x speed, you can see that after I plant and brace, my plant leg straightens and my whole body elevates. This upward momentum is enough that I actually come off my front foot, or upwards enough that I lose most contact with the ground. This has the whole foot rotate on mid-foot as my hips come through rather than rotating on my heel. It's only after I come back down and my front leg bends again that my weight goes onto my toes.

The rotation is also delayed compared to, say, the "Lead Card EO2013" video, where they begin rotating on the heel as right before or during disc release. I'm guess this is because I am planting more open to target than I should, which delays the need to rotate the foot to release the knees/hips.

I agree that I'm tipping a bit forward on the spine, but I don't think the yellow line is correct. Most pros I see are basically vertical during that portion of the throw. I'm not quite sure how to fix that well, though. If I tried leaning back a bit more during the throw, I end up skying the disc.

 

[Icarus]

Also looking at this and past videos, my plant leg doesn't stay internally rotated when I plant. It starts that way after the x-step, but I can see my plant leg knee rotate around as I plant. This is opening my hips early and limiting my upper body rotation? How do I fix that opening up? Swivel stair drills and walking through is easy to keep it, but it's not translating to to an actual throw.

 

[sidewinder22]

Your arm/disc go back, but not your shoulder/hip. Door Frame Drills. Grab the door frame and keep stepping your rear foot closer to target. The only direction you should be able to turn is away from target in drill. If you try to rotate targetward you will get stuck and can't stride hips further away.

 

[Icarus]

It Clicked

After doing some doorframe drills (mostly moving doorframe with my standard run-up), I went out and threw today.

It clicked! I got further reachback, and, more importantly, I threw probably 30' further on average than before! Average throws were 440-460', some in the 470's and 480's, and I had three throws go out to 490-495'!!! I had about a 5 mph straight tail, and the field drops about 3 feet over that distance, for what it's worth.

Link to a throw is below, but I've also put a screenshot of Saturday's practice versus today. I'm definitely getting more upper body rotation, and I am also now rotating on my heel during the throw rather than mid-foot. I don't feel like I'm throwing with any more effort, but the discs are going further.

I think this is a good first step, but there are still lots of things to improve, I think. Can you take a look at the video and critique?

Form Before/After Comparison:

 

[sidewinder22]

Much better!

1st step with right foot should point somewhat targetward and then turn more backwards striding into plant. Lean more targetward going into 1st step, just like walking/running you lean more targetward to accelerate/fall quicker to your destination.

 

[Icarus]

Thanks! I'm very excited about this development.

I get the right foot planted more targetwards, as it delays the backwards turn until going into the x-step/plant for "better loading", if you will. But the leaning forwards on 1st right step seems a bit odd, as you also (see page 3) seem to want the spine leaning AWAY from target when the left foot is coming behind the right on the x-step.

The video below helped me a good bit too, especially seeing how backwards his hips are during the x-step. I also noticed his shoulders rotate and reach maximum rotation/reachback right as his right foot plants, while I still reach full extension a tad earlier and slightly drag the disc into the throw. Perhaps a timing thing to work on as well?

 

[sidewinder22]

You are still doing the funky chicken - butt out/spine extended/shoulders/elbows retracted dropping the baby. Eagle is in battering ram position or rocking the baby.

 

[Icarus]

Just out of curiosity, would anyone have a guess as to a realistic upper range for controllable distance for me in the next year of practice? I've noticed that increases in distance seem to come in spurts as I've improved my form, but like all skills, the final 20% of mastery will likely take 80% of the time/work. I've had this goal of 500' controlled distance, but I wonder if I will start to bump into Pareto's principle around that level. I would actually like to become a better golfer, too, by devoting more time to putting and line accuracy. I wonder at what point should I say, enough (distance) is enough, and to start devoting more time to other points in my game.

 

[sidewinder22]

What's your age, ape index, and how athletic/rhythmic are you?

 

[Icarus]

30 years old. 6'2 height, 6'2 wingspan. Fairly athletic - multiple sports player growing up (basketball, soccer at traveling club level), rock climbing. Disc golf is the main sport now, but currently weightlift (same Youtube channel for recent maxes) run (~21 min 5k), and play rec soccer some seasons when life allows.

 

[sidewinder22]

500' should be doable.

 

[Icarus]

I'm not so sure about the CoG being ahead of the left foot like you posted. I went back and took a freeze frame of Eagle's drive in your Bow and Arrow video, and his CoG is very definitely directly over his left foot, not in front. Drew Gibson's in the video I posted is even slightly behind his left foot. I'm still further back than either, so I think your original point has merit for trying to get more forward. I don't think, though, I should have my CoG that far forward. Eagle's throw in the photo you put was a slower throw, and on a good amount of hyzer too.

 

[Icarus]

First 500' throw today! This was my next field practice day since last update, trying to get the first right foot more towards target and shifting weight as SW22 mentioned. One throw went 512', but most other throws were still around 450', when they weren't nose up or overturned. I actually caught the 512' throw on video, below. The disc was thrown on a mild hyzer and flew in a nice S-curve, but didn't have a huge amount of turnover. This throw would fit on most fairways on longer holes in my area, so I consider it usable distance.

What did I do right there as compared with throws before? It would be nice to compare this throw with others that didn't go so far.