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Hey hey ho ho round ratings have got to GO!

ToddL said:
In place of the PDGA or in addition to the PDGA?
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I've had talks with pros every year they come through the DFW area. I ask questions like "how do you feel about the growth of the sport", etc, etc. It was always pretty much the same, payouts need to grow, get more fans, etc, etc. In the past 7 years playing I've only skipped 1 year of being a PDGA member due to health concerns, I fully respect what the PDGA has done and is continuing to do for the AM side of the sport. But the pro side is severely under marketed imop. Seems like most ams don't really want their membership dues funding any part of the pro side of the sport. That's the typical mentality I've experienced on this forum at least. Now days I tend to agree with that. Let the PDGA continue to focus on the am side and let's get another organization to handle the pro side of the sport. Some (local) pros I've talked to think the DPGT should become that organization. I can't help think that's part of their long term plan anyway.

F. Howl said:
Examples where the PDGA has fallen short in "overall representation to the public"?
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Just for clarity I said "The pros need much better overall representation to the public than what the PDGA provides.

The PDGA was founded over...40...years..... ago. If you look at the PDGA web site it looks like a template used for a standard corporate business web presence. When you have time browse pdga.com at https://web.archive.org/. The site hasn't changed that much in a long time. The fact that the PDGA has to answer to both am/pro memberships screams the need for it to divide. Trying to appease both sides will conflict more and more as the pro side grows.
 
DiscFifty said:
....
The PDGA was founded over...40...years..... ago. If you look at the PDGA web site it looks like a template used for a standard corporate business web presence. When you have time browse pdga.com at https://web.archive.org/. The site hasn't changed that much in a long time. The fact that the PDGA has to answer to both am/pro memberships screams the need for it to divide. Trying to appease both sides will conflict more and more as the pro side grows.
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Ams want to play the same game by the same rules, so how is this a problem?

And how would this affect local B and C tiers? I've only played, maybe one sanctioned tourney that was dedicated to just the Ams. Most tournaments have all divisions available, which I definitely prefer. We get to compare round ratings, socialize with players from all skill levels, and jumping up to Open on a whim is more accessible.
 
Most of the average players who hate ratings do so because it shows the lie in their delusions of grandeur and constant **** talking about how far they throw, how many aces they have etc. We need this mechanism to keep these insufferable people in check. As far as professionals, yes maybe a ranking system would be good in conjunction with the rating system, where more important tournaments count for more.
 
VictorB said:
There are a lot of spoiled disc golfers out there that demand free rounds - some of us out here have to pay to play our courses, and honestly it's not a big deal and it certainly isn't prohibitive considering what we get out of it.
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I suppose that was intended as a personal attack though I'm not sure why.

I'm still new to the sport and not familiar with others experiences are with DG globally. I've played a couple of local parks that exist because of volunteers and donations. I'm happy to contribute to that effort.

I have been involved in other non mainstream sports and it is always the same. People think that a magic money tree is out there for the sport to be 10x it's current capacity. People have no clue about economics nor do they seem to understand what these choices mean to others.

A few dollars for green fees or discs with 2X pricing may not mean much to you, but it will mean something to somebody. That person will choose to quit playing or choose to never play possibly.

Better=organic growth due to more local participation.
 
Ratings have little to no relevance to top pros so why do we care what they think about it? I kind of like the ratings system as it is. While I find it a bit maddening to not know what the exact formulation is I have found it a pretty good representation of player skill. Players that are consistently ranked 20 points above me will consistently beat me. I also find it an interesting metric to compare us mortals to the pros. It really is kind of a entertaining aspect IMHO. I think its quite useful in determining who should be in what division.

Side note: I get people asking me all the time on specifics of how ratings work. I merely tell them, "I put the scores in the PDGA black box and that box does something to those scores and then spits ratings back out." (shrug)
 
Ratings are simply a way to normalize performance on courses of different difficulty. We wouldn't need ratings if all courses were the same like a bowling alley (without special competition oiling). Your rating would simply be your scoring average and you could compare your averages to know where you rank.

The idea that ratings aren't important for elite pros is a U.S. centric position. The PDGA ratings system is credited by several sports administrators as the number one reason for international growth not only in the PDGA but global participation because they want to compare their performance and advancement to our top male and female players. Any ranking system that is unable to compare performances, especially wins, from various tier events around the world becomes U.S. centric tour hype and not an appropriate World Ranking process. Curiously, the PDGA has not updated their World Rankings during 2020, perhaps due to lack of Majors, although they could have since there have been ratings updates this year that included "major" DGPT events.

There are some tweaks that could be made to improve the ratings for everyone, not just elite pros, but the PDGA has not yet acted on those suggestions that are now several years old.
 
davetherocketguy said:
Side note: I get people asking me all the time on specifics of how ratings work. I merely tell them, "I put the scores in the PDGA black box and that box does something to those scores and then spits ratings back out." (shrug)
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Short version is average the propagator ratings, average the scores, scale to 1000. Apply x number of points per stroke based on the number you get when you scale to 1000. (this is the aspect i think could stand to be improved but not my circus, not my monkeys.)
 
Cgkdisc said:
Curiously, the PDGA has not updated their World Rankings during 2020, perhaps due to lack of Majors, although they could have since there have been ratings updates this year that included "major" DGPT events.
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World Rankings are based on:
Round ratings in B tiers and higher
Finish at Worlds
Finish at USDGC
Finish at European Open
Finish at National Tour or EuroTour events
Finish at Pro Tour events

Worlds is out, European Open is out, National Tour is out, EuroTour is out, USDGC hasn't happened yet. We still have round ratings and Pro Tours for US players and just round ratings for European players.
 
ToddL said:
World Rankings are based on:
Round ratings in B tiers and higher
Finish at Worlds
Finish at USDGC
Finish at European Open
Finish at National Tour or EuroTour events
Finish at Pro Tour events

Worlds is out, European Open is out, National Tour is out, EuroTour is out, USDGC hasn't happened yet. We still have round ratings and Pro Tours for US players and just round ratings for European players.
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You're overlooking the fact that the most recent major finishes still count with progressively declining weight, similar to World Golf rankings, until results from the next one replace it. Results from the European Open and Japan Open when played were in there for two years. There's no reason the 2019 World Championship and USDGC couldn't continue in the ranking calculation with declining weight just like the other events.
 
DiscFifty said:
I've had talks with pros every year they come through the DFW area. I ask questions like "how do you feel about the growth of the sport", etc, etc. It was always pretty much the same, payouts need to grow, get more fans, etc, etc. In the past 7 years playing I've only skipped 1 year of being a PDGA member due to health concerns, I fully respect what the PDGA has done and is continuing to do for the AM side of the sport. But the pro side is severely under marketed imop. Seems like most ams don't really want their membership dues funding any part of the pro side of the sport. That's the typical mentality I've experienced on this forum at least. Now days I tend to agree with that. Let the PDGA continue to focus on the am side and let's get another organization to handle the pro side of the sport. Some (local) pros I've talked to think the DPGT should become that organization. I can't help think that's part of their long term plan anyway.



Just for clarity I said "The pros need much better overall representation to the public than what the PDGA provides.

The PDGA was founded over...40...years..... ago. If you look at the PDGA web site it looks like a template used for a standard corporate business web presence. When you have time browse pdga.com at https://web.archive.org/. The site hasn't changed that much in a long time. The fact that the PDGA has to answer to both am/pro memberships screams the need for it to divide. Trying to appease both sides will conflict more and more as the pro side grows.
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Slightly off-topic, but there are a couple of threads about growing the sport and increasing payouts. Main thing I've seen is why should big companies sponsor disc golf like they do in ball golf? Spectators don't pay to come in and watch...they don't have to buy food/drink/souvenirs from the sponsor. It isn't televised, so the sponsor isn't getting air time. All of that makes it hard for disc golf to get big (non-disc) sponsors...and big payouts.

As for organizations....

PDGA is similar to the USGA as both are the rules folks.
PDGA is similar to the PGA/LPGA as they run tournaments.
NAGDT is the amateur part of disc golf.
 
txmxer said:
I suppose that was intended as a personal attack though I'm not sure why.
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Not a personal attack at all.

I feel very strongly that a very small green fee (I pay $110 annually, total, for 5 courses) should be considered by many more parks departments. Some of the appeal of disc golf is the 'free' to play aspect - but I think the sport also needs additional, local investment beyond what taxes pay for. This will also help the volunteer pools that always seem to be only a few of the same people that will do extra course maintenance - the parks department would have a significantly larger budget to allocate funds for work and improvement using the model we have here. All of the money that is raised for daily/annual fees is put back into the courses. The improvements I've seen locally in the 4 years I've been here have been dramatic and very much appreciated.
 
I assume Paul is planning to donate all proceeds from his highest-rated-round-ever disc and his 1050 disc and any other discs that have sold with his name on it in relation to rating?
 
joshmo65 said:
I assume Paul is planning to donate all proceeds from his highest-rated-round-ever disc and his 1050 disc and any other discs that have sold with his name on it in relation to rating?
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not sure if you looked through the original twitter thread, but the top reply is Terry Miller pointing out something similar:

TM: I disagree and I wonder if your sponsor disagrees. If everyone feels the same then maybe your sponsor shouldn't cash in every time you hit a new "highest ever rated" mark and subsequently sells merch based upon that.

#JustSayin'

PM: We stopped that at 1060 nearly a year ago with Discraft. They may agree or they may not. I can't tell if your asking past or current sponsor so I don't have your answer.
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kind of a catty answer by paul lol
 
davetherocketguy said:
Well it's a catty response to Terry Millers catty tweet. Not sure I would have responded any different.
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if paul is gonna say "ratings don't matter!" I think it's pretty fair to point out that paul has financially benefitted a number of times by (a sponsor) specifically promoting his rating. terry could've asked a bit differently but that's the gist of it, and instead of a good/reasonable explanation we get this ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

if he has addressed it in further detail elsewhere, let me know and I'll give it a listen :)
 
this was 6 years ago and of course people are allowed to change their minds. but still kinda funny

https://www.innovadiscs.com/team-news/paul-mcbeth-sets-a-new-standard-of-excellence-1050-rating/

PDGA Player Ratings have drawn their fair share of criticism over the years. What are your thoughts on the accuracy of the system?

Paul: I believe the system is pretty accurate. I do think it tends to favor the touring player who is playing a greater number of tournament rounds. It could be that complaints are coming from those with less of a ratings history, which can make a difference.
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