How many others will be banned?

[Donovan]

The way I understand it, the PDGA changed their definition of what a legal disc or PDGA approved disc should be. I also understand that the Turbo Putter will no longer be good after this year. How many other discs got cut out due to these changes? If more than that one, which companies were effected by this? Anyone?

 

[mobster]

I think just Quest is affected by this. They also made the double-rimmed Wheel that didn't get approval.

 

[MattK]

Do you have a link to the info on "The Wheel"? Last I'd heard, its approval was still pending.

 

[magictenor1]

What is a Turbo putter and what is wrong with it?

 

[Three Putt]

The Turbo-Putt is designed like a saw blade, with nubs all around the outside of the rim. It's designed to be used to turbo-putt, which is a putting technique. It's hard to explain, but if I'm stuck behind a something and I can't get a regular putting motion, I'll put my fingers on the outside and top of the rim with my thumb on the bottom of the flight plate, then sort-of fire the disc at the basket like a football. Bad explanation, but you get the gist. Anyway, the nubs on the outside are grooves for your fingers, and there is a swirl on the bottom so you can wedge your thumb into something for better grip. Really, it's sort-of a novelty disc. It was first approved, but there was a bunch of uproar since technically it is not round. There was also some concern that it was unsafe, but hit a guy in the head with a Turbo-Putt and then hit him in the head with a Pro Destroyer and see which gash needs more stitches.

There was some other stuff going on as well (the SL was ruled illegal briefly on a technicality.) So the rules were revised and the Turbo-Putt become illegal after this year. Not a great big deal, really.

They also put a limit on the size of the rim, which was a bigger deal. 2.4 cm., if I recall correctly. So once Innova comes out with their "Speed 14" discs, that will be all she wrote for the "Bigger rim, faster disc" race we have been in for the last 10 years or so. That is why the Monarch all of a sudden showed up. The manufacturers will have to develop new tricks from here on out since the rims are about as big as they can get.

The Turbo-Putt was really the only disc affected. The Epic could have been since at it's widest spot the rim is bigger than the max, but it is grandfathered in and will not loose it's approval. The Wheel was kind-of a gray area, but there were reasons NOT to approve it under the old rules so I don't think it would have been approved one way or the other. The story I heard was that Steve at Quest knew that the PDGA was going to revise the tech standards, so he was hung out to dry...he could not go forward with any new designs not knowing what the new standards were going to be, and the PDGA was dragging its feet and not doing anything. He released the Wheel and Viola!...the tech standards revision email came out the next week. The rumor was that he knew all along that it would not be approved, and he only released it to force the PDGA to do something. In the end he determined the rim size limit by releasing the Double D, as it was slated to be grandfathered in with a smaller rim limit but the other manufacturers argued that it would be unfair for Quest to be the only company with a disc that fast. So the Double D rim size became the legal limit by default.

 

[Three Putt]

Do you have a link to the info on "The Wheel"? Last I'd heard, its approval was still pending.

Nope, The Wheel is illegal for PDGA play. It's kind-of useless anyway, so no great loss.

 

[Three Putt]

Also I guess that I should note that the guy who complained loudest FOR the Tech Standards revision and for a limit on the size of the rim was Dave Dunipace at Innova. He was pretty open at the time that the Destroyer was released that he thought the rims had gotten too wide and he wanted a 10% rule...the rim could only be 10% of the diameter, which for a 21.1 cm driver would have been 2.11 cm. The Destroyer was actually the third Innova disc to exceed the 10% rule (the MAX and TeeRex were the first two) but when the Destroyer came out he made a lot of noise about how he felt forced to release that disc and he did not think it was good for the game to have discs like that (more ballistic, less aerodynamic) out there. So Innova was actually campaigning for a 21.1 cm limit on rims, even if it made three of their best-selling drivers illegal (although they also recommended a 10-year window to phase them out.)

 

[MattK]

Nope, The Wheel is illegal for PDGA play. It's kind-of useless anyway, so no great loss.

In casual play I've found it makes a decent "get out of trouble" disc, on occasions. It is a straight, slow roller, and sometimes that is what is called for. But on most occasions a regular driver is better, they can roll a lot farther.

 

[petecarp]

why was the SL dubbed illegal at one time?

 

[ERicJ]

Link to Turbo Putter:
http://www.discgolfcenter.com/main_displayProductList.php?sn=turbo+putt

Link to the Wheel:
http://www.discgolfcenter.com/main_displayProductList.php?sn=wheel

 

[Innovadude]

I think SL or Fl or TL were an issue because they were made from 2 different approved molds, and their new mold was technically a different one, which wasn't originally approved by itself.

 

[Three Putt]

The rule was (and I think still is) that once a disc is approved, you can change the mold and the disc is still legal. There are certain things that must stay the same (like the diameter of the disc has to stay the same) but the manufacturer can tweak things like the shape of the wing and the disc is still legal. So as new plastics were introduced, Innova noticed that the type of plastic altered the flight of the disc. To be able to control that, they had (or have) an "X" (overstable) mold and an "L" (less stable) mold of several drivers. As a general rule, the "X" mold was produced in DX and Champ and the "L" mold was produced in Pro (although that is a loose rule, as you can find "L" and "X" Eagles in each type of plastic.) So when the Starfire came out of the CFR program it was sold in Champ and Pro, but even though they had the same name it was actually two different discs...The Champ Starfire "X" and the Pro Starfire "L." However, there was only one approval that covered both discs because they were both sold as the "Starfire."

Confused yet? Here is the twist...If you have an approved, legal disc and change the name, you have to have the disc re-approved EVEN IF the mold does not change at all.

So early last year Innova thought it would have to discontinue Pro plastic. They had three Pro discs that were only sold in pro plastic that were "L" molds that they wanted to keep in production, the Pro TeeBird, Pro Firebird and Pro Starfire. They decided to release each in Star plastic to keep them in production. Problem was, there were already "X" mold Star TeeBirds, Star Firebirds and Star Starfires in production. So Innova decided to sell them as the Star TL (TeeBird L), Star FL (Firebird L) and Star SL (Starfire L.) The PDGA ruled that those amounted to name changes. So even though players had been using those molds as legal discs in PDGA play for years, the discs had to be re-approved.

The TL and FL were re-approved in the spring, but the SL never showed up on the approved list. When it came time for the Discraft-sponsored USADGC, it was still not on the approved list and the TD (correctly) announced that the Star SL and Pro Starfire were not approved and therefore not legal for PDGA play. I guess having one of their discs declared illegal for a PDGA major caught Innova's attention, because the disc was approved by the next weekend.

I don't think the new Tech Standards addressed those rules. The manufacturers tweak their disc molds all the time, whether we are aware of it or not. There has been at least three versions of the TeeRex since it was introduced, but unless you know what to look for they all just say "TeeRex" on them.

 

[Donovan]

Three Putt, first let me say thanks for such great info on this!

So are you saying that only Quest has been affected by the change? Are those Innova discs like the Destroyer, they will be banned in 10 years or was that just a maybe?

It seems odd that only one company was effected for trying to be creative. I suppose the whole keeping it round thing is understandable to a point. I just hate seeing people trying to come up with something new that follows the guidelines and the someone changes the rules to say sorry, your creativity is not wanted.

This happens often in many sports and then every once in a while, the opposite happens like the new soccer ball thing that is going on in that sport right now. However, creativity winning out is hardly ever the norm. It makes me wonder if this holds sports development back or does it keep it where it should be?

 

[Russell Gore]

Since I still say that I can Turbo putt further and more accurately than anyone on the planet, I don't quite like the Turbo putt disc. It seems to be more of a learning tool than anything. I can't hardly throw it, and I can turbo putt up to 150 ft( no exaggeration, I really can turbo putt this far and have plenty of witnesses). I learned by throwing this putt for close to a year in every situation except tournaments. To me a turbo putt is basically the same as throwing a curve ball in baseball. Your index finger is what makes this throw work. I can put enough spin on a turbo putt to make it curve left or right. With all of those ridges on the outer rim it makes it hard to generate spin because your finger remains in one of the ridges throughout the throw, almost causing you to "push" the disc instead of spinning it. You can't let your finger slide around the outer edge the way the throw was designed. I give Quest all the credit in the world for designing the disc. I just don't think they fully understand what makes this putt work. There just aren't a lot of us who throw this putt so there is no real info on why and how it works. Plus the thumb track on the bottom of the disc is pointless. All of the rest of your fingers are used for balance only. They installed that track like it has something to do with the actual throw itself, therefore confusing people who don't know how to throw this. Plus it doesn't come with instructions, so how does anyone actually know how this putt works?
To better explain a turbo putt I will break it down the best I can...........
First take your throwing hand and bend your middle and ring finger down. Your index and pinky go up. Kinda like a hang loose sign. Anyhow put the disc on your middle and ring finger with the other two fingers being on the outside of the rim. Now your thumb goes on the little "nub" in the center of the disc. Now that you have that remember that only your index finger and forearm are what throw this shot. You bend your forearm at the elbow so that you are holding the disc above your head. When throwing this it is a combination of forearm and index finger that make this fly. Move your forearm forward with good tempo and spin your index finger counter clockwise around the outer rim of the disc. All of your other fingers are for balance only they serve no other purpose. If the disc wobbles coming out of your hand it was because of too much speed on either your arm or finger. It has to be a balance of arm speed and finger spin. They must equal each other for this to work. Work with it long enough and you will straighten it out. The key is a balance of finger spin and arm motion. They need to match up pretty closely.
Now an advanced lesson...........(Curve).........
To make it curve right to left put more counter clockwise spin than arm motion. That means that your index finger should slide faster and smoother around the outer edge. Using a birdie bag may help since it makes things come off your hand smoother.
To curve left to right put clockwise spin on the disc. This is very tricky since it is not a natural throwing motion. This will pull muscles you didn't know you had. Be careful you can tear something doing this. This will make it curve the opposite way therefore this should be the last thing you try. Practice throwing straight for a long time before trying the curve part.
Hope this helps all who have never tried this putt. If this can become a part of your arsenal than you will have a great advantage over most other players. This is great for uphill putts, over bushes, around trees, through tight ceilings, and anywhere else you can imagine this shot going. Just remember that you will not learn this over night. It takes a lot(months maybe even years) of time and practice!!!!!!!!

 

[Three Putt]

Three Putt, first let me say thanks for such great info on this!

So are you saying that only Quest has been affected by the change? Are those Innova discs like the Destroyer, they will be banned in 10 years or was that just a maybe?

It seems odd that only one company was effected for trying to be creative. I suppose the whole keeping it round thing is understandable to a point. I just hate seeing people trying to come up with something new that follows the guidelines and the someone changes the rules to say sorry, your creativity is not wanted.

This happens often in many sports and then every once in a while, the opposite happens like the new soccer ball thing that is going on in that sport right now. However, creativity winning out is hardly ever the norm. It makes me wonder if this holds sports development back or does it keep it where it should be?

First off, thanks for that insight into the Tubo, Russell. I love a good thread drift when it has good info.

As for the Tech Standards...the deal on the Turbo was announced BEFORE the revision and the Wheel was not going to be legal even under the old rules, so really no discs were killed by the revision. The only disc that I can remember that would not pass the new tech standards that is currently approved is the Epic, and it was grandfathered in and will remain legal. The Innova discs I mentioned are well within the new standards and will not loose their approval at any point...unless something changes.

And yes, the Tech Standards revision was aimed right at Quest. You remember last year? They released a slew of discs including odd stuff like the 10 M Brick, the Backbone, the Turbo-Putt & the Wheel. This year? They have been messing around trying to release the Defender for the last five months. Other than that, nothing. The Tech Standards revision was cooked up to shut down the creative stuff from Quest, and so far it's working.

BUT...A comment about Quest that is in line with what Russell said about the Turbo...the stuff is weird and creative BUT Steve does not play. He understands aerodynamics and engineering, but in a lot of cases he just does not understand how a shot works or what a player wants. So while the stuff was interesting, in a lot of cases it was just not all that functional.

 

[MattK]

"Quest AT says this about The Wheel:
The Wheel is a PDGA conforming golf disc and we are awaiting its PDGA approval."

-carefully worded, to be sure. Of course they can keep awaiting its approval forever...

 

[Donovan]

Well, it is odd that he doesn't play, but regardless, it still kills and dampens innovation (no innova pun intended). I wonder if it has made other disc makers shy away from trying new things? Oh well this was so informative. Thanks for all of it!!!

 

[Three Putt]

"Quest AT says this about The Wheel:
The Wheel is a PDGA conforming golf disc and we are awaiting its PDGA approval."

-carefully worded, to be sure. Of course they can keep awaiting its approval forever...

The PDGA has threatened to sue them if they don't stop calling it a "PDGA conforming golf disc." It's approval was denied back in October or November of last year, and you can appeal that. All you can do is alter the disc and re-submit it.

BTW, the reason it was not approved was because it has no top. The ruling was that a disc must have a top and a bottom, and The Wheel technically has no top and two bottoms.

 

[Nickwells]

No top?

 

[Three Putt]

Well, it is odd that he doesn't play, but regardless, it still kills and dampens innovation (no innova pun intended). I wonder if it has made other disc makers shy away from trying new things? Oh well this was so informative. Thanks for all of it!!!

The story of disc golf is one of patents and lawsuits. The reason the Technical Standards for discs were so lax was because Innova held the patent on discs. Back in the day all the discs had that "licensed under patent" in the engraving on their discs because they had had to sign a licensing agreement with Innova before they could release a beveled edge disc. Anyone who tried to release anything funny would end up in court, as Innova used the licensing agreements to exert pressure on the other companies. Lightning was the exception, as their lawyer regularly beat Innova's lawyer in court so they never had to sign a licensing agreement. Anyway, the Tech Standards for discs did not need to be strict as Innova was in control of what was released.

Innova didn't make up this strategy, they learned it from DGA. DGA held the patent on baskets and sued anybody who mounted chains and/or a basket to a pole for years. The explosion in disc golf courses in the late 90's came about when the DGA patent expired and Innova started selling the DisCatcher basket for about $100.00 less per basket than the Mach III. In a similar way, the number and kind of discs exploded after the Innova patent on golf discs expired.

If I was still a cynical kind of guy, I'd point out that the pressure for Tech Standards revision came primarily from Innova shareholders. Then I'd insinuate that they used the PDGA as a puppet as they had them revise the standards to crack down on the other disc manufacturers since legally Innova could not do it anymore. But I gave up being cynical, so you will have to connect the dots yourself.