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How many others will be banned?

Nope, technically it has no top. It is kind of like a lid style putter with the flight plate is in the middle of the rim instead of on one side. So with the flight plate in the middle, it really has no top. If you throw it backhand, it dives hard into the ground no matter how you try to throw it as it has no lift AT ALL.
 
The PDGA has threatened to sue them if they don't stop calling it a "PDGA conforming golf disc." It's approval was denied back in October or November of last year, and you can appeal that. All you can do is alter the disc and re-submit it.

BTW, the reason it was not approved was because it has no top. The ruling was that a disc must have a top and a bottom, and The Wheel technically has no top and two bottoms.

If I was with Quest I'd say "sue me...and I'll wipe you out in the counter suit!" The advocate for Quest could argue that The Wheel does indeed have a top and bottom, only that the flight plate is sunken so far that they are hard to distinguish. If they ban all sunken flight plates, then several other discs would go, not just Aerobie's Arrow, but also Discraft's Banger-GT, Innova's Birdie, Wolf...pretty much anything with a thumb track or features that push the central flight plate somewhere other than on top of the disc.

Now if they clarify/alter the rules to dictate that the plate must be a certain percentage or distance from the center, but do so in such a way that only Quest's disc gets left out - that strengthens Quest's position that the PDGA is in bed with the bigger disc companies. They have an established history (with the turbo-putt) of banning discs that Quest makes that, while technically conforming to the rules as they are written at the time, have a structure that the PDGA (and the bigger disc makers) did not anticipate.

Maybe the rules should be changed to make the Wheel non conforming. In the same vein, maybe they should ban thumb tracks, or soft putters, or grooves, or translucent plastic...this of course will never happen, because Innova and Discraft have developed discs with these characteristics. But the PDGA doesn't hesitate to ban the innovations, however bizarre, that Quest has made. I can't say for sure that the PDGA is acting as an authority favoring the big companies over the small, but it appears to be a fair argument to make.
 
If I was still a cynical kind of guy, I'd point out that the pressure for Tech Standards revision came primarily from Innova shareholders. Then I'd insinuate that they used the PDGA as a puppet as they had them revise the standards to crack down on the other disc manufacturers since legally Innova could not do it anymore. But I gave up being cynical, so you will have to connect the dots yourself.

Exactly! And I'm sure Quest's lawyers can connect the dots as well, and have told the PDGA's people that they believe that potential triers of fact can also make the connection.

I really hope they strike a deal however, as they did with the Turboputt. To have such a battle fought out in court would be terribly costly to all involved.
 
Really, I wish Quest would just stop making discs before they end up doing some of the things mentioned above. As of yet, they haven't made anything that is "innovative" in a way that is actually useful and if they sued and had discs like the Banger GT, thumbtrack discs, etc. banned it would piss off massive amounts of people; Exponentially more so than if they just gave up making discs altogether.
 
I don't think Quest is the bad guy, here. They're just doing what they should be doing: developing novel products that conform with the rules, as they are written. I hold the PDGA to blame for not developing a rigorous definition for what a disc must be to be legit. Instead they have been taking a reactionary approach: making ex post facto changes to the rules after a disc comes to market which follows the letter of the law, but for whatever reason the rules makers just don't like.
 
I don't think Quest is the bad guy, here. They're just doing what they should be doing: developing novel products that conform with the rules, as they are written. I hold the PDGA to blame for not developing a rigorous definition for what a disc must be to be legit. Instead they have been taking a reactionary approach: making ex post facto changes to the rules after a disc comes to market which follows the letter of the law, but for whatever reason the rules makers just don't like.

I agree! As a wheel owner myself, I must add that its a pretty useless disc. Why should PDGA be bothered to ban a disc that (I feel) most people would agree does not provide an unfair advantage? The only advantage it has that I can tell is that their competition has not made a similar disc.
 
I'll try not to get long winded here, because I like the dialog and don't want to cut anybody off.

Basically the PDGA did what its membership wanted it to do in banning the Turbo-Putt and The Wheel. When they did the Tech Standards Revision the changes they made were dictated by feedback from PDGA members. Really, what else could they do? So the whole thing was directed by PDGA players, who generally drink the Innova Kool-Aid and repeat what their Innova-sponsored Open Pro friends told them to say. I got an earful about how unfair the whole process was because I play in St. Louis, and the locals were repeating what their Gateway-sponsored Open Pro friends were saying about how the process was tilted to what Innova wanted. That's not an Innova bash, God knows they do more for disc golf before breakfast than I'll do in my entire life. It's just the reality of the little pond with the big shark swimming in it.

NOW...there are around 12,000 current members of the PDGA. It's impossible to know for sure, but there is an estimated 500,000 disc golfers in the U.S. As you can see, the PDGA represents a really small fraction of the disc golf population. So obviously, a really small % of players had their voices heard in this matter.

So the flip side is...if you don't play in PDGA events or local events that use PDGA rules, why do you care? Drive with an Aerobie Ring and putt with a Turbo Putt if you want to. Unless you are a player who competes in tournaments, you should not let the PDGA tell you anything about the equipment you use. If you do play in PDGA events and you disagree with what they did...well, I guess you should have sent that questionnaire back. :cool:
 
<<<<So the flip side is...if you don't play in PDGA events or local events that use PDGA rules, why do you care? Drive with an Aerobie Ring and putt with a Turbo Putt if you want to. Unless you are a player who competes in tournaments, you should not let the PDGA tell you anything about the equipment you use.>>>>>

AMEN, AMEN, and AMEN again.
 
In my experience, regulation -- to a point -- forces greater and greater creativity in stretching the rules to their limits. I'm just curious to see what Qwest will do with the new rules in place. I expect we can see some innovative designs with larger-diameter discs (how would a Jaguar-sized disc with a Destroyer-sized rim fly?); more discs that utilize two or more types of plastic fused together; additional experimentation with rim configurations (I'm sure we all suspect that if Qwest had release the Monarch, it would have been banned by the PDGA, but I'm sure there are other ways to alter rims to get different properties out of the disc flight); new variations on rings, dimples, etc on the flightplate.

For instance, I can imagine a putter fused of two different plastics in a yin-yang type configuration. One half is stiff as a board and the other half is floppy as putty -- the disc would fold in half to pass the tech standards, but it would allow a golfer to grip and throw the stiff part and then the floppy part would grab the chains like a little spider monkey and just not let go.

Or take a disc -- any disc -- and coat the whole outside rim in shock-absorbing rubber so it gets zero-bounce off of trees -- perfect for those tree-lined alley shots, since it almost guarantees your second shot would stay in the fairway.

Or make a disc that follows the same idea as the wheel -- a perfectly neutral center of gravity -- and make a "Wheel v2.0" that has a flight plate that is even with the outside rim of the disc, giving it the true "top" that the rules require, but sink the center of the flight plate so far that it comes even with the bottom edge of the disc, essentially counterbalancing the center and outside edge of the flight plate so that the end result is a vertical center of gravity -- achieving the same goal as the Wheel while conforming to the new PDGA standards and hopefully being easier to throw.

Anyway, those are just the first ideas that pop into my head this morning, but I will look forward to seeing what gets implemented and what company(ies) are willing to forge new ground and experiment with disc technology.

I think discs will hit a limit as to how far/fast they will go under the current standards, but I think there is a lot of potential to develop specialty discs that are the ideal discs for various situations on the course.

I know there is a widespread trend for "disc minimalism" and getting to know your plastic, but I think the current #1 player at the time of this post -- Feldberg -- is the poster child for the potential benefits of specialty discs. He's got a huge bag packed with plastic, a lot of it tuned specifically for certain types of shots that other people might not have a disc for.

Sure, it's possible to make 3-4 discs fly 90-percent of routes. But as the sport gets more and more competitive, having a disc to fly those other tricky, specialized 10-percent of shots can increasingly be the difference between winning and losing at the elite eschelons of the sport.

And for those of us down in the trenches who probably never will be playing 1000-rated golf, a disc that stops cold when it hits a tree could still be pretty useful. :)
 
If you look around, Innovation is happening. Quest and Gateway are still working on Dimple Technology (even though Innova continues to say it does not work) and Discraft put cross-hatching on the wing of the Impact, so even though the Monarch gets all the attention it is certainly not the first attempt at innovation on the wing of the disc. There is also a small company called Snap Discsports that released a disc called the Helios that has a 2.7 cm diameter and a 2.3 cm rim, so there is a larger diameter disc with the modern "big wing" (although admittedly not "Jaguar-sized"...:eek:) None of these innovations were outlawed, and I'm sure more are on the way.

Also, I was wrong about the wing length, it can be 2.6 cm and still be legal.
 
I know there is a widespread trend for "disc minimalism" and getting to know your plastic, but I think the current #1 player at the time of this post -- Feldberg -- is the poster child for the potential benefits of specialty discs. He's got a huge bag packed with plastic, a lot of it tuned specifically for certain types of shots that other people might not have a disc for.

Sure, it's possible to make 3-4 discs fly 90-percent of routes. But as the sport gets more and more competitive, having a disc to fly those other tricky, specialized 10-percent of shots can increasingly be the difference between winning and losing at the elite eschelons of the sport.
To be clear, many of us that do push minimalism acknowledge that overspecalization can be a problem once you aquire the necessary skills. In other words, you have to be able to make 3-4 discs fly 90% of the routes to get anything out of moving away from minimalism. Once you're to that point, there's definitely something to be said for choosing specific discs for specific shots assuming you have good enough disc selection skills to choose the right disc every time.
 
Feldberg is the equivalent of the the big-league ballplayer with an weird batting style.

When I coached little league, I always ended up with some kid waving the bat over his head like Julio Franco or spreading their feet too far apart like Jeff Bagwell, and I could not get them to change because they saw a big-leaguer do it on TV and who the (blank) was I anyway? So they would go 0 for the season and their Dad would yell at me for being a lousy coach.

So now I try to warn disc golfers that they have too many different discs in their bag and they should really learn how to throw the same disc on different lines instead of depending on the disc to do the work for them, and all I hear is "Dave Feldberg carries 40 discs and who the (blank) are you, anyway?"
 
I sure do hope that disc makers do continue trying to come up with something different. I really dig the idea that the best disc made for this sport has yet to be discovered. I have to refer to the soccer ball thing again. Who in there right mind would take the time to improve something that is worldly know, used and loved just the way it is? Well, it sounds like a huge waste of time, but that's what made this so amazing. The ball and game is going to be better beacuse of it.

Nothing is perfect and almost anything can be improved upon. So I hope instead of banning discs or making discs innovation controlled by one entity, or 2 in some people's mind, that we allow people to keep on striving to create the next big disc.
 
Amen Donovan! Long live Quest AT, Discwing, Snap, Latitude 64, Aerobies Epic and any one else who truly wants to be real INNOVAters, or true DISCRAFTsmen. I go out of my way to support other companies beside the big two. (or really the big one) I have heard stories about how INNOVA can control the PDGA from people that hold disc golf tournaments on the course they developed. I truly feel that INNOVA is in bed with the PDGA. Which is just another reason that the PDGA in my opinion is ran piss poor. Disc golf now reminds me of surfing in the 70's (especially with the stoner stereotype that seems to be attached to it). This sport has yet to be truly marketed correctly. I think if this sport gets (or when) bigger and more money is to be made of it, the PDGA could be replaced by another entity if there not careful. The pros and the disc golf manufactures will follow the money.
 
I think it will. Just remember these things take time. From our own history, the PDGA was formed in 1976 or 1977 when the game used Frisbees. There were changes made to make the discs better for golf, but they involved making the diameter smaller and making the discs themselves heavier. It took six or seven years before the key step, the beveled edge, was developed. It seems as obvious as the nose on your face...we were using a disc designed to be caught for a sport where nobody needed to catch a disc. Yet there were very very smart people like Ed Headrick and Dr. Stancil Johnson who missed it. Even after the beveled edge was in production, it took another five years before you saw any discs with our current "driver-like" design. So if you are expecting a great revolution in golf discs every six months, you will be disappointed.
 
Amen Donovan! Long live Quest AT, Discwing, Snap, Latitude 64, Aerobies Epic and any one else who truly wants to be real INNOVAters, or true DISCRAFTsmen. I go out of my way to support other companies beside the big two. (or really the big one) I have heard stories about how INNOVA can control the PDGA from people that hold disc golf tournaments on the course they developed. I truly feel that INNOVA is in bed with the PDGA. Which is just another reason that the PDGA in my opinion is ran piss poor. Disc golf now reminds me of surfing in the 70's (especially with the stoner stereotype that seems to be attached to it). This sport has yet to be truly marketed correctly. I think if this sport gets (or when) bigger and more money is to be made of it, the PDGA could be replaced by another entity if there not careful. The pros and the disc golf manufactures will follow the money.
Innova isn't really in bed with the PDGA. That would give the PDGA too much credit. The PDGA is the great and powerful Oz. Innova is that man behind the curtain.
 
Feldberg is the equivalent of the the big-league ballplayer with an weird batting style.

When I coached little league, I always ended up with some kid waving the bat over his head like Julio Franco or spreading their feet too far apart like Jeff Bagwell, and I could not get them to change because they saw a big-leaguer do it on TV and who the (blank) was I anyway? So they would go 0 for the season and their Dad would yell at me for being a lousy coach.

So now I try to warn disc golfers that they have too many different discs in their bag and they should really learn how to throw the same disc on different lines instead of depending on the disc to do the work for them, and all I hear is "Dave Feldberg carries 40 discs and who the (blank) are you, anyway?"

I agree and disagree to a point. I strongly encourage players starting out (or players who have never had a minimal bag) to work hard to learn 2-3 discs, preferably neutral discs. But as you learn how plastic flies, I think it can improve your game to experiment with a bunch of different discs and a bunch of different throws.

I've been throwing discs for a little over a decade, and in college, my roommate and I spent countless hours playing disc golf for the sheer fun of it -- we didn't sign up competitively. We'd have a lot of one discs rounds where it was Aero vs. Aero or putter challenges or Speed Demons only, or whatever. Or we'd play rounds where we'd throw multiple discs and keep multiple scores going (separate backhand, forehand and upside-down scores for each of us on every hole, for instance) with the winner having the lowest cumulative score. Forced experimentation with different discs and different ways discs can fly improves your understanding of the plastic and of the game.

One of the most fun games we played was to get 3-6 people playing in a group and each bring the worst disc we owned. You would throw that one disc for the hole, and then after every hole, trade discs in rotation. It helped teach you how to throw every kind and condition of plastic imaginable.

Another game was to take all the discs we had in the car, drop them on the ground, and take turns "drafting" discs into our bag for the round. You could strategize to try to take all the putters or high speed drivers or whatever, or to take the other person's favorite discs, etc... made for some very interesting rounds with unfamiliar plastic.

When we'd do field work, we'd just have a stack of all our discs and take turns throwing whatever was on top, then collect them, restack them, and throw again. You got to try everything and see how subtle differences in discs and throws affected flight.

These days, with very little time for casual play (now I basically only have time for tournament rounds), I know I still benefit from those years goofing off and truly playing with what discs can do.

For tournaments, I have basic discs that are always in my bag -- the workhorse discs that do 90% of the work. But based on the course and the conditions, the other half my bag changes every round to fit the occasion. I also don't feel like my round is going to be ruined by losing any one disc -- there is always something else that can make the same shot. I've played several tournaments without a bag -- carrying just 4-6 discs in my hand

I'm not advocating that players use Feldberg to justify a huge bag of discs. I'm just saying that once you have enough experience throwing different discs, it doesn't hurt to expand beyond disc minimalism. Sure, a CE Firebird can fly a tight helix down an S-shaped alley in the woods, but if I bring a Z-Xtreme for that shot I can throw a lower, tighter line and get a bigger skip at the end, perhaps putting me closer to the pin than would be possible with the Firebird. Am I going to use the Z-Xtreme on other shots: probably not. Is it worth it for one hole: absolutely.
 
Sorry, I'm not arguing you point.

Here is my message board philosophy on this...a bunch of guys who played disc golf for the first time this weekend will go home and Google "Disc Golf" and end up reading this forum. I try to give conservative advise, as those guys need to use minimalism and learn to throw. If they have 12-14 different molds in their bag, it will make it harder for them to learn. For you, I figure you know enough about the sport to make your own decisions and ignore me if you would like. If you want to carry a bunch of discs, why not?

I'm just never going to advocate carrying a bunch of different molds on a message board...kind-of for the same reason I don't curse in movie theaters during Disney movies. :)
 
Oakley Doakley keeps sneaking in on me. The last post was actually responding to the post from t i m.
 
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