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I think Val got burned.

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"The Tournament Director may, at his sole discretion, elect to issue a warning to the offending player in lieu of disqualification solely at PDGA events sanctioned at C-tier and below."

This is from the PDGA, it should clear things up right? Please tell me you get the difference now? THE TD HAD NO CHOICE FFS


3.05C: Players choosing to use a caddie will be solely responsible for their caddie's conduct from the two minute warning until the player's card is turned in. Misconduct by a caddie may subject both the player and caddie to disqualification and/or suspension.

This is the 'may' in question, not the one you quoted, FWIW
 
How would you handle this situation if it comes up in 2 months? Observe the caddie for sobriety? Give a verbal warning? Would it matter if the player were on the leader board in the final round or if it was a hack on day 2?

This is the type of crazy situation that comes up in sports that has to make officials go crazy.

DQ in a heartbeat. Not even a discussion.
 
So if it was an empty beer and no other evidence, then no DQ -- I mean you literally can't separate that from picking up litter.

But if there was an eyewitness or if Sharon/Val admitted there was beer in it while caddying, then DQ.

Sounds like there might be crazy grey area though, like she was drinking it while spectating early in the round, then started caddying at some point, when the beer may or may not have been empty. Maybe we'll find out the details on the podcast, but the tease is rather annoying.
 
If don't care what "they" intended by leaving the "may" in there, it reads in plain English as permissive. It would have been incredibly easy to write the rule to pass the punishment down to the player from the caddie. They abstained from doing that. Therefore the may should be read as it is written. As permissive. If they want it differently they have all the opportunity in the world to correct their mistake.

Write the rule as you believe it should be written and submit it to the rules committee. It's been written the way it is written for a while and also interpreted as a number of people have already pointed out. They're not going to re-write a rule that is understood to mean what they intended it to mean unless someone (like you) points out the ease in which their wording can be misinterpreted.

I don't have to rewrite anything, I have the English language and a group of people able to read above an elementary level behind me, and you have... Not sure who is on your side.

I'm on his side!
 
It doesn't matter how many people believes that the word "may" is not permissive, it is permissive. There is no stare decisis in the rules. "May" means "may," not "must" or "shall."

Your referring to a single usage of "may". The word "may" has multiple uses depending on context:

If I say, "it may rain today", I'm not giving the weather permission to rain, I'm simply making a statement of multiple possibilities.

If I say, "you may enter", I'm expressing permission that you can come in.

It's a fair reading of the rule in question, to interpret the context of the use of may as the former. I.E. merely stating the possible results of caddie actions, but not giving any guidance as to when or how the penalties should be applied, instead leaving that up to the appropriate rule that governs the situation.

I would agree that clarity could/should be improved, but it's a stretch to insist that the interpretation that "may" is not being used as a permissive in this case is wrong, especially given the Rules Committee has said that is the intent.
 
If I were Paige and Val, I would collude with each other to create some sort of crazy drama and ensuing rivalry. Imagine if Paige turned in Val and Val flew off the handle. Suddenly women's disc golf isn't boring, it is filled with intrigue. You could have the sponsors take digs at each other as well as a viral advertising campaign. Engineer a crazy enough rivalry you could even sell a one on one grudge match with a charity purse that would get eyeballs.
 
If I were Paige and Val, I would collude with each other to create some sort of crazy drama and ensuing rivalry. Imagine if Paige turned in Val and Val flew off the handle. Suddenly women's disc golf isn't boring, it is filled with intrigue. You could have the sponsors take digs at each other as well as a viral advertising campaign. Engineer a crazy enough rivalry you could even sell a one on one grudge match with a charity purse that would get eyeballs.

Sounds like someone loves reality tv shows.

I think there's plenty of intrigue in FPO. Same way that people ate up McBeth absolutely dominating back in 2015. Or when Tiger vs. the Field was the hot bet in ball golf. Either way, it's easy to enjoy the historic dominance, or cheer for someone else to come up and win.
 
Your referring to a single usage of "may". The word "may" has multiple uses depending on context...

, especially given the Rules Committee has said that is the intent.

Any rules violation has two parts, the action and the consequence. The rule lays out the action, which is a violation of any other rule by your caddie, and a consequence, that the player "may" be subject to DQ or suspension.

Of you decide to be creative and use the may to simply allow for another consequence to be applied, the you are left in a position where the action has no specifically detailed consequence. You are forced to do more creative reading, saying that the rule saying that players are responsible for their caddie's somehow confers all punishment down to the player. Of course this is not supported by the text of the rules, it requires two episodes of mental gymnastics and ignoring the obvious regular English meaning of the rule in question.

Please post evidence the rules committee stating their intent.
 
My biggest complaint is with people saying the DQ was mandatory.

My much smaller side complaint is with the TD going with the nuclear option. I would have done it differently. I value the athletic and competitive aspect of tournaments over the rule following aspect.

Ah yes, the old "rules are made to be broken" defense. I believe Perry Mason used it in season 4 episode 13. Judge threw it out and fined him for contempt.

Keep on foot faulting Ricky, it's okay.
 


36:30 mark

According to Cory, Val's mom jumped on as caddy with only 4 holes left. Did the park allow alcohol? (More than just DG rules being broken if they don't allow alcohol.) Also..now we know why Leslie Todd didn't finish, she was 19 over for the round, sounds like she was frustrated and just walked off.
 
DiscFifty;3310502 Did the park allow alcohol? (More than just DG rules being broken if they don't allow alcohol.) [/QUOTE said:
No:

PROHIBITED ACTIVITIES: Fires, camping, littering, wood gathering, collection of plants or animals, hunting, archery except within the designated archery range. No amplified music. Excessive noise prohibited. No alcohol, except in reservable picnic areas designated and approved by the Director of the Parks and Recreation Department.

http://www.cityofsantacruz.com/gove...arks-beaches-open-spaces/parks/delaveaga-park
 
Do they draw a boundary in those reservable picnic areas? Is that line they draw in bounds or out of bounds.

Either way....how many spectators had an adult beverage in their hands?
 
Do they draw a boundary in those reservable picnic areas? Is that line they draw in bounds or out of bounds.

Either way....how many spectators had an adult beverage in their hands?

Spectators are basically park users. This is no different than someone at the park playing basketball with a beer. Tournament can't control that. Not sure why that matters.

But the moment someone picks up a bag, the player is responsible for that person's actions.
 
Spectators are basically park users. This is no different than someone at the park playing basketball with a beer. Tournament can't control that. Not sure why that matters.

But the moment someone picks up a bag, the player is responsible for that person's actions.

Playing basketball with a beer!? Sounds like somebody is tryna get dunked on
 
Any rules violation has two parts, the action and the consequence. The rule lays out the action, which is a violation of any other rule by your caddie, and a consequence, that the player "may" be subject to DQ or suspension.

Of you decide to be creative and use the may to simply allow for another consequence to be applied, the you are left in a position where the action has no specifically detailed consequence. You are forced to do more creative reading, saying that the rule saying that players are responsible for their caddie's somehow confers all punishment down to the player. Of course this is not supported by the text of the rules, it requires two episodes of mental gymnastics and ignoring the obvious regular English meaning of the rule in question.

Please post evidence the rules committee stating their intent.

There is no mental gymnastics required, it's the logical conclusion based on the grammatical construction of the rule.

When you're using may as a permissive, the entity being granted permission is generally in the subject, or at least somewhere in the sentence. Who is being granted permission to decide the penalty, the "action" itself, or is it possibly the "caddy"?

They could have clarified and said "Misconduct by a caddie may subject both the player and caddie to disqualification and/or suspension, at the TD's discretion". In this case it's still not a permissive, it's a list of a possibilities with a qualifying clause describing how to choose between the possibilities.

The rule is unclear but not because of whether the "may" is permissive or not. It's unclear because you have to infer, based upon the entirety of 3.05C, that if the caddie violates a rule you are assessed the penalty. It's not explicitly stated. The second part with the "may" merely lists some possibilities without any additional language to specify who determines or how one determines what the penalty should be, and whether or not it applies to just your caddie, or both you and your caddie.

A simple fix, if it is in fact their intent, would be to do as ball golf does and simply explicitly state that the caddie is governed by the same rules as the player, and if the caddie incurs a penalty it is assessed to the player.

As far as my assessment regarding the intent of the rules committee, I'm merely going off assertions made in prior posts in the thread, so I could be wrong on this account.
 
No:

PROHIBITED ACTIVITIES: Fires, camping, littering, wood gathering, collection of plants or animals, hunting, archery except within the designated archery range. No amplified music. Excessive noise prohibited. No alcohol, except in reservable picnic areas designated and approved by the Director of the Parks and Recreation Department.

http://www.cityofsantacruz.com/gove...arks-beaches-open-spaces/parks/delaveaga-park

OMG, she was shooting arrows outside the designated arrow shooting place at beer cans, wasn't she?
 
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