Improperl marked OB lines...

[ScottyLove]

This situation came up a few weeks back at a PDGA tournament...

First, the OB lines are incorrect as you can just have one stop without connecting to another OB area or back to itself, but unfortunately I see this kind of thing often. This was a long 660 ft hole wil OB line down both sides, but the left side just abruptly ended near the basket. I'm sure because the next tee pad was nearby. THe lines are actually above the ground using wires suspended in the trees, so it was easy to tell that the flight of the disc crossed the OB line before it end at a tree.

But the disc was cleary beyond the tree giving the player a putt at the basket. He played the original lie and a provisional from where it crossed the line which was the correct thing to do of course. The question is, was the disc OB or not?? Some veteran folks said the line extends into infinity even though not marked. Some said as long as it came to rest past the end of the line, it's in. I think it's clear the inention of the designer was for it to be OB, but without a line, I think you have to call it in... which the TD did. LESSON: TDs should line OB properly!

 

[Sir-Hucks-A-Lot]

Has happened in tourneys here, too, on a hole where a gutter represents the OB line, but travels only 370' down the left side of the 400' hole. Someone bombed past it, and we decided it was in, because it crossed past the end of the gutter, and it wasn't marked as infinity on the map (simply listed as "left side gutter and beyond OB." I'd call it in, but that's why it's good to gather a group of guys/gals to play the course after it's marked, and check those things out before the tourney starts. Can't catch 'em all, but a lot of things can be marked to avoid too many provisional shots.

 

[Cgkdisc]

The OB rule uses the word "line" which does not have an end unlike a "ray" or "line segment". So based on that, the OB line in this example continues indefinitely so the disc is OB. We don't seem to have this same interpretation problem with mando lines which rarely are marked too far from the mando object. And yet, everyone accepts that the line continues indefinitely.

 

[PhattD]

The OB rule uses the word "line" which does not have an end unlike a "ray" or "line segment". So based on that, the OB line in this example continues indefinitely so the disc is OB. We don't seem to have this same interpretation problem with mando lines which rarely are marked too far from the mando object. And yet, everyone accepts that the line continues indefinitely.

I don't think this is a valid analogy. You are correct that in Mathematics a line is indefinite, but in everyday English it is ambiguous. For instance no one refers to the lines in a parking lot as line segments even though they do have an end. It is up to the TD to make the OB definitions clear from the beginning. In this example I would rule that if it was not made clear where OB ends that you give the benefit of the doubt to the player.

 

[JC17393]

Isn't it up to the TD or course designer to determine where the line ends? It can't be assumed that the line goes on indefinitely any more than it can be assumed that it ends. Particularly when we're talking a public park course where resources may be limited or the ability to "finish" the line is hampered by any number of factors.

I've played courses where an OB line ended and it wasn't played as if the line continued on its path indefinitely. Instead, if you managed to get past the end of the marked line, you were in bounds. Reason being that the "line" that was marked was hardly straight, so how would one determine where it continued once it ended? So the rule was that it took a 90 degree turn toward the OB side at the point it ended and if you somehow landed past it you were in-bounds. It wasn't a problem playing it that way, nor was it "wrong", because the TD made it clear how the OB line and where the marking ended was to be treated.

As long as the way it works is clearly defined, there's no "lesson" to be learned here.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Consider that no other interpretation makes any sense other than the line extending. Otherwise, you're mind reading that the TD had another intent besides forgetting to extend it further. Yes, the TD should have extended the line and a line ending too early like that is a mistake. So you say, "If OB lines are not supposed to end, what direction should it have gone?" The only logical answer is to continue indefinitely in the same direction. Assuming any other direction, including stopping, would imply that the TD deliberately did not indicate they wanted the direction to change. So the group's first decision is, "Yes, the line continues." Second decision, where benefit of the doubt might go to the player, would only be if the disc landed so close to the imaginary extension of the line that the group couldn't tell for sure.

 

[bnbanbury]

I have played plenty of holes where an area is OB up to a certain point and then closer to the pin the OB stops. If the TD did not address this in the player's meeting, or on scorecards, or mark the area as OB then the disc is in bounds. I don't see how you could play it any other way.

 

[JC17393]

Consider that no other interpretation makes any sense other than the line extending. Otherwise, you're mind reading that the TD had another intent besides forgetting to extend it further. Yes, the TD should have extended the line and a line ending too early like that is a mistake. So you say, "If OB lines are not supposed to end, what direction should it have gone?" The only logical answer is to continue indefinitely in the same direction. Assuming any other direction, including stopping, would imply that the TD deliberately did not indicate they wanted the direction to change. So the group's first decision is, "Yes, the line continues." Second decision, where benefit of the doubt might go to the player, would only be if the disc landed so close to the imaginary extension of the line that the group couldn't tell for sure.

I'm not talking about interpretation. I'm talking about playing it EXACTLY THE WAY THE TD INTENDS IT TO BE PLAYED. If he doesn't make it clear, then you do what the players in the OP did by using provisionals and allowing the TD to make the call. The wrong thing to do in such a situation is to assume anything one way or the other.

There is no "the TD should have extended the line" if he intended the line to end where it did. That's the only point I'm trying to make here.

 

[Cgkdisc]

There's no such thing as leaving an OB line hanging so it's a mistake. There can be no TD intent to leave it end. So mentally extending it just like a mando paint line that ends is the correct call. Granted, the TD should have painted an arrow on the end of it explicitly indicating it was extending if running short on paint.

 

[JC17393]

There's no such thing as leaving an OB line hanging so it's a mistake. There can be no TD intent to leave it end. So mentally extending it just like a mando paint line that ends is the correct call. Granted, the TD should have painted an arrow on the end of it explicitly indicating it was extending if running short on paint.

I have played courses where a rope line ended intentionally and the mandated way to play it was that the OB ended at the end of the rope. So I'm not buying "there can be no TD intent to leave it end". It can happen. Players should never assume what the TD intended (you yourself said that players can't be mind-readers).

If the TD doesn't make it clear enough for the players to make a call, they play it provisionally and take it to him for a ruling. But if the TD does make it clear, players can't take the initiative to decide he's wrong and play it differently.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Even if the TD says, "The OB ends at the end of the rope" it's a mistake unless the TD either marks a line 90 degrees from the end toward the OB side, or worse, tells players to imagine a 90 degree line heading toward the OB side. What would you tell the TD if he said the missed mando line stops where the paint ends?

 

[Aim For The Chains]

couldn't a TD just curl the ends of the rope back so they made small loops?

 

[notroman]

Even if the TD says, "The OB ends at the end of the rope" it's a mistake unless the TD either marks a line 90 degrees from the end toward the OB side, or worse, tells players to imagine a 90 degree line heading toward the OB side. What would you tell the TD if he said the missed mando line stops where the paint ends?

I actually ran into that in a local tournament a few years back. The OB line ended abruptly near the green and a player's disc landed about 20 feet past the OB line and pretty close to the end of the line - it was not certain whether the disc was OB or not. I brought it up to the TD and the following year he made the 90 degree bend and extended the OB line towards park boundary to do a better job of clearly defining OB.

We also have another course where the OB line runs along a railroad tie fence and the TD spray paints an OB line most of the way up the fairway but stops at the woods. He makes sure to state at the players meeting that the line goes on indefinitely so there isn't any confusion later.

 

[Cgkdisc]

couldn't a TD just curl the ends of the rope back so they made small loops?

Not ideal but better if the TD just bends a foot of rope 90 degrees at the end toward the OB side. Guess what? We all would assume that the small little piece of rope after the 90 degree bend would continue indefinitely in that direction. We all assume the 90 degree "wings" on either end of a temp painted tee line continue indefinitely back on either side to define the width to the temp tee pad, even if the concrete pads on the course are flared wider at the back.

 

[JC17393]

Even if the TD says, "The OB ends at the end of the rope" it's a mistake unless the TD either marks a line 90 degrees from the end toward the OB side, or worse, tells players to imagine a 90 degree line heading toward the OB side. What would you tell the TD if he said the missed mando line stops where the paint ends?

In your opinion, it's a mistake. Let's make that 1000% clear here. Your opinion is that it's a mistake. That doesn't make it so.

If the TD tells players to imagine the OB makes a 90 degree turn at the end of the line, then that's the way it should go. It seems no more or less ambiguous as assuming that an imaginary line continues to infinity in the general direction implied by the marked line.

As for the missed mando line...since the TD is under no obligation to mark a mando line, I don't think he has the power to end the line at any point. There is a default in the rule book that defines the mandatory line whether it is marked or not. There is no default in the rule book that defines an OB line that isn't marked. Therefore they're not the same things and aren't treated the same way.

 

[Cgkdisc]

I would say the application of a similar principle of extending the mando line would be applied to the OB line extension. Simple as that. You're just trying to lawyer your way out of a penalty which is what people try to do. But a line is a line unless otherwise stated by the TD or marked as changing direction. And as pointed out, we have no trouble mentally extending other lines as indicated.

 

[threej21]

I understand Chucks references to other lines we assume extend indefinitely. I also see where it could be confusing if not stated by the TD. Either way, the OP handled correctly in taking a provisional and letting the TD make the call later, even if maybe the TD was still wrong...
though I too have played a tournament where a flagged ob line down the right side of fairway, ended about pin high. Regulars at that course have always played that the OB line stops, and that's how the TD played it in the tourney.

 

[JC17393]

I would say the application of a similar principle of extending the mando line would be applied to the OB line extension. Simple as that. You're just trying to lawyer your way out of a penalty which is what people try to do. But a line is a line unless otherwise stated by the TD or marked as changing direction. And as pointed out, we have no trouble mentally extending other lines as indicated.

What the hell are we arguing? The bolded part is exactly what I'm trying to say. Because the TD can "otherwise state" that the line/OB area ends at the end of the marked line, there should never be an assumption by players that it is to be played one way (the line continues) instead of another (the line ends). If they are unsure, they should seek the TD or play provisionals. What they should not do is assume one way is correct, not seek clarification, and play it out in that one way that they assume is correct.

To me, the analogy is a body of water or a road or a sidewalk. It is only OB if the TD states it is so (via caddy notes, tee sign markings, players' meeting instructions, or whatever), so a player or a group, if they are unsure about the status of a particular area, shouldn't assume that it is OB and play it only that way (or assume it's not and play from the area penalty-free). They should seek the TD's clarification before playing out the shot(s) or play provisionals to seek a ruling after the fact.

I'm failing to see how a marked line ending shouldn't be treated the same way when it's encountered...either the TD has instructed players how to play it (and the players in question missed his instruction) or it is an unexpected circumstance and it didn't occur to the TD that it was necessary to instruct players beforehand. But either way, the TD is the ultimate authority. There is no right or wrong here, only what the TD says.

 

[geoblime]

I can see many sides to this argument. Yes, the TD should be the deciding factor and OB shouldn't be left for the player to assume where and when it ends. If OB is going to be strung up, it should have a clear beginning and end.

I've played a few tourneys where rope was laid on the ground with no clear start or stop. We played it as IB before or after the rope. According to Chuck's explanation, if the end of the rope curls towards the fairway, we're to extend that line indefinitely. Well, that could make a quarter, half, or majority of the fairway OB. I can see where Chuck is coming from since we do extend the lines of a tee marking, etc. but things get complicated then.

In the end it's paramount for the TD to explain everything at the players meeting. Making a clear stop and start, be it with stakes, trees, paint, etc. is needed.

 

[jsc430]

I played a similar hole to this in a tourney not to long ago. This is a solution, maybe not an answer....

The designer set up a mando at the "end" of the OB line, such that you had to pass on the fairway side of the mando and then DZ for missed mando.

So boom, he's inbounds but missed the mando, penalty then to the DZ. I think that's clear for the players and accomplishes the intent of the design.