Innova 3 series discs-approved?

[Three Putt]

True, and yes it may be a loophole, but as consumers if it says pdga approved on a disc from the largest mfgr...

Gremlin said PDGA approved for something like seven years before it was actually approved. Innova argued that it was a retooled Sniper so it should have been legal under that approval when the rules clearly said a name change had to be reapproved. Letting Innova do whatever they want isn't a great idea...

 

[mark996]

There was a discussion years back about making them engrave PDGA APPROVED on the back, like Dynamic does with their weights and models. I'm sure at first it'd be a PITA, but that way my stamped discs that I've wiped wouldn't be in question, not that I'd see them being in question anyway but I'm sure someone would complain, somewhere about it. This seems to be one of those small things that should be worked out, but it's been something like 4 years since the last time it was brought up about PDGA approval being on a disc.

 

[runningDoc]

I'm pretty sure Ulibarri calls his waking putt STEPPUTT3

 

[mark996]

I'm pretty sure Ulibarri calls his waking putt STEPPUTT3

Is that why he's so good at putting? He does it as he's getting out of bed? I gotta step up my practice routine.

 

[tbird888]

There was a discussion years back about making them engrave PDGA APPROVED on the back, like Dynamic does with their weights and models. I'm sure at first it'd be a PITA, but that way my stamped discs that I've wiped wouldn't be in question, not that I'd see them being in question anyway but I'm sure someone would complain, somewhere about it. This seems to be one of those small things that should be worked out, but it's been something like 4 years since the last time it was brought up about PDGA approval being on a disc.

I'm pretty sure many companies reuse the bottom part of mold pieces for several different molds. Tooling PDGA Approved into a mold won't really help in that situation.

 

[Three Putt]

Welcome to the sometimes murky world of compromise between standards organizations and commercial entities. Remember that our sport has the common thread of self officiating which also extends to our equipment used. The alternative with more regulation will be too costly whether having officials in every group or checking every disc in a player's bag before play and not allowing replacements to be used during the event without inspection. Not saying the current compromise is ideal but it's current version. Note that if you feel some discs should be checked again to see if they meet the specs as shown on the approval sheet, you may always submit that request to the PDGA the same way players have done when they find a run that doesn't appear to meet flex standards.

Actually my question now is the vCobra. The vRoc is approved. The vCobra is not. Are the v line discs going to be considered to be not "far enough from the approval specs to be considered illegal" line the 3 line, or do those have to be approved? Right now it's clear as mud.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

Its only OK bc innova does it. We have been over this threeputt where were you hiding?

I still cant believe it when a roc3 clearly isnt the same as a reggie roc wing shape.

 

[Streets]

Actually my question now is the vCobra. The vRoc is approved. The vCobra is not. Are the v line discs going to be considered to be not "far enough from the approval specs to be considered illegal" line the 3 line, or do those have to be approved? Right now it's clear as mud.

My first assumption would be the vCobra is a Cobra with that vtech inner rim. However, nobody will mistake a vRoc for a Rancho or Roc3. They look nothing alike. They only share the Roc name.

 

[JoakimBL]

Why are some people hung up on what the stamp says? That is utterly irrelevant. Stamps get worn off or are removed. There are discs with the wrong stamps on them etc. If that was somehow relevant, the manufacturers could just stamp an approved name on any disc and have it sail through (non existent) checks for legality. TD's in reality have no way to check discs for legality apart from wear and tear, defects, modifications and size and weight. And that's if they have a scale.
If manufacturers/players want to cheat in this fashion, there is no real way to avoid that, no matter what the techstandard says or what the approval process is.
I'm not defending the current system, just saying that arguments based on stamps and marks on the discs are pretty useless.

 

[@iDiscGolf]

Although I don't care for any texture on a discs contact point (not a huge issue), MVP has "PDGA approved" molded into the outer rim of every disc,( along with gyro, mold and company. )

 

[SonicGuy]

Why doesn't the pdga require companies to get their molds certified every 5 years, for each variant? What is it, 500 bucks a pop? Chump change to a manufacturer but those funds could collectively be very useful for the pdga. Very punative for Innova but they should think of it as a luxury tax for being the market leader.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

more approval chat from Nother thread ... same old song and dance

Wasn't there an innova conspiracy theory involved with this?

The "PDGA is pro innova"conspiracy goes as such (i have no opinion on its validity)

KC pro has been made just has hard (specifically 11x era) by innova. Why is it that gateway was asked to stop making plastic that stiff when innova had been doing it?

The counter argument to the conspiracy is that innova did soften up 11x era kc pro, and has made it softer ever since. So it isn't that unlikely that they were asked to stop making kc that stiff, it just wasn't publicly disseminated.

Actually the discs Gateway really threw a fit about were the Champ Firebirds that were out as the same time as the G9i Wizards. They couldn't pass a flex test, either. Again, no idea if the PDGA said anything to Innova about those or not.

I really didn't care so much about the G9i's, but I really miss medium Wizards. I've had to switch to the soft Wizards, which...it might be me but when a soft is new it's fine in terms of being firm, but they beat in and get softer. I hate soft putters. I really can't beat up a Wizard anymore. Hopefully the beat up mediums I have will last me.

Supposedly Gateway sent G9is to the IDGC to stock on shelves, and they fondled them, found they were really firm (they are, and they're glorious), and decided to test them. Apparently Innova didn't send any of those offending Firebirds to the IDGC so the PDGA can plead ignorance.

What really is troublesome is that if they were really that stiff, the PDGA didn't make them illegal for competition despite the fact that they didn't pass the established standards.

That would have been a pretty empty ban since it would have been impossible to enforce. I think they did the most reasonable thing by just getting them out of the market and not worrying about the ones that are out there. They can't test every disc, and the flex test I'm sure is the most often flunked PDGA technical standard. There are millions of golf discs over the last 30 years that have been sold with "PDGA approved" on them that would have flunked the flex test. A couple hundred Wizards? No sweat.

I think the PDGA has for a long time has done this same thing with questionable plastic mixes. Case in point: Cam Todd Challengers. Everybody loved them. They could have sold a boatload of them whenever they wanted to. Why did that plastic disappear? Maybe for the same reason the G9i plastic disappeared and Discraft just never said anything publicly about it. I seriously doubt a Cam Todd Challenger could pass the flex test. Same with the 10X Kc Pro plastic. Why did it get softer during the 11X run? Why didn't Innova go back to the harder plastic when everyone hated the later 11X runs? Maybe the PDGA had something to do with that.

Or not. Hard to tell. It is possible, though.

I think it was 2014 sometime. They have not run the G9i's in a while, but you can still get them.

Innova should have to pay to get all of the 3 series molds approved for sure. Dont think id support a 5 year thing only if the mold changed which manufacturers should be required to report and subject to fine/ban etc..

 

[Three Putt]

So I sent off some emails...the PDGA Tech Standards guys want all variants tested and approved but the manufacturers (read: Innova) argued that it was too cumbersome to approve variants and the PDGA BoD sided with the manufacturers. The BoD did say that if a variant was submitted the approval fee would be waived and the disc added to the approved list. So...IT'S FREE. All Innova has to do is submit three of each variant for testing and it is done.

I sent Innova an email asking them to do this and they said "meh." I guess sticking three discs in a box is too much hassle for them (not that they ship boxes of discs for a living or anything...)

 

[Aim For The Chains]

Great company.

 

[Streets]

PDGA Everybody!

 

[tbird888]

The Innova Disc Golf Association...get your lethal Firebirds, but watch out for those other manufacturers' putters.

 

[Mulligan]

So...IT'S FREE. All Innova has to do is submit three of each variant for testing and it is done.
I sent Innova an email asking them to do this and they said "meh." I guess sticking three discs in a box is too much hassle for them (not that they ship boxes of discs for a living or anything...)

It seems like an infinitely stupid move to not do this when you sponsor the best player ever and he's been winning dang near everything throwing some 3 series discs that are (apparently) unapproved.

 

[Cgkdisc]

If it's really important to anyone to resolve any perceived infraction, you can always send in discs like say some Series 3s that you don't think meet the current approved specs for that model. If Jeff tests them and they are out of spec then he will press the manufacturer that they made too big of a change and need to submit the variant for approval. That's how it's worked for previous issues like this or when maybe a batch of some disc model was too stiff.

 

[tbird888]

It's a variant on a name but a completely different mold. The flight ratings don't match. Why should we do work the PDGA should have the balls to do on their own? It's a little too convenient that they just "happened to notice" the G9i's, but they can't look at the stamps on the TeeBird and and TeeBird3 (Leopard and Leopard3, TL and TL3, etc) and not notice that the flight ratings are different.

The PDGA is the governing body of the sport. It's time for them to act like it. Do they not have the 3 molds in the proshop at the IDGC? That's where the Wizards were "discovered".

 

[Cgkdisc]

All potential infractions in the past have been reported by players and then checked out. That's how the process works. This is a self officiated sport and the policy on disc compliance is consistent with that. Personally, I would like to see a little more monitoring. However, when you play that out, there would continue to be compliance creep where it's hard to justify doing this if you don't do this. Then, you should be doing this if you're doing that. Gradually more and more things would need to be done to be consistent. You get to where discs in player's bags need to be checked and certified for events. There's no budget to do the types of things being asked for proactively so it's done after the fact when reported.