Ledgestone 2017

[onemilemore]

Most of the DGPT Pros would prefer 'proper' astroturf, per a recent poll. Personally, I'm hoping that Nate can get the ok to professionally install turf out there so that when tourney time comes, we are good to go. I think the majority of the course is very solid in its current layout, so permanent tees could work.

Totally thinking out loud here, but I wonder what it would cost the tour to construct and haul 18 portable turf teepads that would be used at each event. A nicely framed pad, with the necessary drainage underneath that could then be moved on dollies or something like that. I bet the initial price would be steep, and you'd need another trailer. But some kind of partnership with Prodigy or DiscGolfPark to get DGPT exclusive pads -- at least at the main course for each event -- would be pretty excellent.

 

[Flick Maniac]

Most of the DGPT Pros would prefer 'proper' astroturf, per a recent poll. Personally, I'm hoping that Nate can get the ok to professionally install turf out there so that when tourney time comes, we are good to go. I think the majority of the course is very solid in its current layout, so permanent tees could work.

FWIW, i have no distinction between types of artificial turf, that word just popped into my mind first. I have no idea what at astro in it stands for or if you are refrerring to the docks, i see them more and more over here, helps loads in installing the tee to an uneven area and done big enough theres no risk of falling/slipping over the edge. Its funny though (and i do it myself) but why do we always feel the need to plant at the very front even when theres like 15ft room? Like we need those inches to reach the pin

 

[_MTL_]

Totally thinking out loud here, but I wonder what it would cost the tour to construct and haul 18 portable turf teepads that would be used at each event. A nicely framed pad, with the necessary drainage underneath that could then be moved on dollies or something like that. I bet the initial price would be steep, and you'd need another trailer. But some kind of partnership with Prodigy or DiscGolfPark to get DGPT exclusive pads -- at least at the main course for each event -- would be pretty excellent.

Google Wins again...

https://port-a-field.com/category/102-disc-golf-tee-boxes

 

[Steve West]

Google Wins again...

https://port-a-field.com/category/102-disc-golf-tee-boxes

Isn't that just the white lines?

 

[Dana]

Totally thinking out loud here, but I wonder what it would cost the tour to construct and haul 18 portable turf teepads that would be used at each event. A nicely framed pad, with the necessary drainage underneath that could then be moved on dollies or something like that. I bet the initial price would be steep, and you'd need another trailer. But some kind of partnership with Prodigy or DiscGolfPark to get DGPT exclusive pads -- at least at the main course for each event -- would be pretty excellent.

You are still going to have the issue (necessity) of finding flat ground at courses such as Lake Eureka Temp. Requiring DGPT stops to have quality tees will be the easiest fix. We don't see these issues so much on the DGWT with it being exclusively played on DiscGolfPark courses (or in the case of La Mirada last year, being outfitted with DiscGolfPark equipment).

 

[lyleoross]

Look ma, no hands. The first covered stadium built was in Houston Texas. It had windows in the roof for the grass to grow. The grass died. . They replaced the grass with the very first artificial turf. The name of the team? Everyone now, the Houston Astros, so named cause NASA was here. So of course the called the turf, astro-turf.

The Astros have been such a bad tem over the years that they are often called the dis-astros. The turf was the same. It was so hard and sticky that it blew out many knees. The artificial turfs today are much better.

 

[onemilemore]

You are still going to have the issue (necessity) of finding flat ground at courses such as Lake Eureka Temp. Requiring DGPT stops to have quality tees will be the easiest fix. We don't see these issues so much on the DGWT with it being exclusively played on DiscGolfPark courses (or in the case of La Mirada last year, being outfitted with DiscGolfPark equipment).

Of course. I think the basket standard is a good start for DGPT and I would love to see a teepad standard next. Would also like to see NTs adopt the same standard, but this would end up taking a lot of temp courses (GCC, Masters Cup) out of the mix. No easy solution other than time and money.

 

[TheOtherBill]

Fail. You didn't include Lethal Weapon.

Double fail - his best role was as Rodney's best friend in Easy Money.

I'm glad Josh won something big pretty quickly after coming back so the discussion about his return would not just be hanging out there. This is a new and tricky area for a fledgling sport, but Josh will not be the last winner with a questionable background as the sport expands.

Also, really top-notch posts on here...I'm more than a little surprised :thmbup:

 

[JTacoma03]

Of course. I think the basket standard is a good start for DGPT and I would love to see a teepad standard next. Would also like to see NTs adopt the same standard, but this would end up taking a lot of temp courses (GCC, Masters Cup) out of the mix. No easy solution other than time and money.

The Turf Teepad Revolution is slowly coming on. In my experience, the vast majority of people who claim to not like them, have never played on them. It's frankly just a superior surface to use for the sport.

I would actually posit that it allows for more temp courses if it becomes the standard though, because concrete isn't temporary obviously, and rubber teeing mats are hot garbage as far as performance. Turf stands out even further above Rubber than Concrete.

The Beast in Nokia is not a permanent 18 either, so those tees are mostly temp.

 

[sjberry2017]

The Turf Teepad Revolution is slowly coming on. In my experience, the vast majority of people who claim to not like them, have never played on them. It's frankly just a superior surface to use for the sport.

100% agree, they're just so superior in pretty much every way compared to concrete.

Totally thinking out loud here, but I wonder what it would cost the tour to construct and haul 18 portable turf teepads that would be used at each event. A nicely framed pad, with the necessary drainage underneath that could then be moved on dollies or something like that. I bet the initial price would be steep, and you'd need another trailer. But some kind of partnership with Prodigy or DiscGolfPark to get DGPT exclusive pads -- at least at the main course for each event -- would be pretty excellent.

I'm still somewhat shocked that they haven't invested in a set of baskets for the tour to have as a backup in case there aren't up to par (get it?) baskets at the course already. Or better yet, have there be a basket sponsor for the tour and come up with a way to wrap the band or have custom number plates for each tournament (a la the Utah Open). Or even better still, have the title sponsor of each tournament provide their top tier basket as a temporary install for the tournament (wouldn't really work with Discraft for this event but as Mr. Heinhold said they'll have their championship basket out next year or use Mach X's). Or combine those. But for a tour trying to build the standards and make it more of a uniform set of tournaments for a season, I'm still pretty surprised by this.

No sir, you were correct. Uneducated. This segment of Americana is as important as any historical fact I ever learned. And funnier to boot.

Truth, after all,

Sorry, favorite reference ever. Just like Smokey and the Bandit, the first movie was a masterclass in how to do story telling right, and the sequel was a master class in what not to do to make a sequel.

 

[JTacoma03]

I'm most surprised that we haven't yet seen the emergence of a new company specifically making quality Disc Golf Targets (Baskets, whatever). It's a completely different manufacturing process, as well as sales pipeline, compared to discs - but yet disc manufacturers are the only major players in the game.

Thinking aloud here:

The only company that I can really think of that has attempted this is/was Arroyo, but unfortunately those targets are just not good quality. Not trying to be rude, just my opinion from experience.

DGA is primarily selling Targets, but they're still a full brand as well, even though they don't mold their own discs.

I guess DiscGolfPark (caveat: I'm a sales rep and course designer for them) is the closest thing to this, but we're not manufacturing in house either, our aim/market position is to do equipment + design together when possible (or retrofitting + re-design if it's an existing course). While I have sold equipment without the design component, it's not the primary strategy.

Not sure how big the barrier to entry is, but it seems that there's at least some opportunity there with the rate at which new courses are being installed.

 

[JC17393]

I'm most surprised that we haven't yet seen the emergence of a new company specifically making quality Disc Golf Targets (Baskets, whatever). It's a completely different manufacturing process, as well as sales pipeline, compared to discs - but yet disc manufacturers are the only major players in the game.

<snip for space>

Not sure how big the barrier to entry is, but it seems that there's at least some opportunity there with the rate at which new courses are being installed.

There have been a few companies that have tried to go the target only route. Arroyo is one good example. DiscKing is another. The trouble is that, even with the ever growing number of courses, the market for targets is still a limited one with lots of existing competition.

Once you sell, say, 19 targets to a course (18 holes + a warmup target), that's usually it. No more sales to that party. Barring vandalism or acts of nature, they're probably set for 10-15 years at least. So you're constantly relying on new customers...or repeat customers who happen to be prolific in getting courses approved/installed...to sell more product.

I have to think it's tough to be a small start-up where the majority of sales have to be generated in relatively big chunks/orders, and the main competition in the marketplace is doing it as more or less a side business, so their overhead is not necessarily less but it is heavily subsidized.

 

[biscoe]

The Turf Teepad Revolution is slowly coming on. In my experience, the vast majority of people who claim to not like them, have never played on them. It's frankly just a superior surface to use for the sport.

I agree 110%. I try to push turf on every project I am involved with at this point.

 

[Allurex]

I'm late to the basket discussion, but I think it's hilarious that people insist that the consensus best player in the World, back to back World Champion, and probably the best putter ever, needs to change his putting style to accommodate for the baskets.

It's laughable.

 

[araytx]

FWIW, i have no distinction between types of artificial turf, that word just popped into my mind first. I have no idea what at astro in it stands for or if you are refrerring to the docks, i see them more and more over here, helps loads in installing the tee to an uneven area and done big enough theres no risk of falling/slipping over the edge. Its funny though (and i do it myself) but why do we always feel the need to plant at the very front even when theres like 15ft room? Like we need those inches to reach the pin

Look ma, no hands. The first covered stadium built was in Houston Texas. It had windows in the roof for the grass to grow. The grass died. . They replaced the grass with the very first artificial turf. The name of the team? Everyone now, the Houston Astros, so named cause NASA was here. So of course the called the turf, astro-turf.

The Astros have been such a bad tem over the years that they are often called the dis-astros. The turf was the same. It was so hard and sticky that it blew out many knees. The artificial turfs today are much better.

Easy guys. We've gotten into the confounding of Kleenex vs. facial tissue problem.
The names that most people use, whether it be AstroTurf, FieldTurf, RealGrass, etc., you're using the name brand when what you really mean is the general word for artificial turf. I took every prior mention of AstroTurf to mean any artificial turf, not AstroTurf the name brand.

The Turf Teepad Revolution is slowly coming on. In my experience, the vast majority of people who claim to not like them, have never played on them. It's frankly just a superior surface to use for the sport.

I would actually posit that it allows for more temp courses if it becomes the standard though, because concrete isn't temporary obviously, and rubber teeing mats are hot garbage as far as performance. Turf stands out even further above Rubber than Concrete.

The Beast in Nokia is not a permanent 18 either, so those tees are mostly temp.

Superior in every way except upkeep. From what a couple of experienced disc golf course designers tell me, artificial turf is superior in feel, in traction, and in many ways. However, most disc golf courses need minimal maintenance. And without regular upkeep, turf will not weather well in the elements. I know. I've been a school administrator for years and we had artificial turf on two of our sport stadiums, and on a set of practice fields. We had definite regular maintenance on the turf.

 

[sjberry2017]

Superior in every way except upkeep. From what a couple of experienced disc golf course designers tell me, artificial turf is superior in feel, in traction, and in many ways. However, most disc golf courses need minimal maintenance. And without regular upkeep, turf will not weather well in the elements. I know. I've been a school administrator for years and we had artificial turf on two of our sport stadiums, and on a set of practice fields. We had definite regular maintenance on the turf.

Discgolfpark tees only need to be resanded once per year IIRC, and that's pretty much all there is to them. They might not be ideal for a nine hole project that's just going to be an afterthought for a county, but for any course that has even half a club attached to it, that should be handled well enough.

Of course, this being the real world it'll get done by the same four people every year more or less.

I'm most surprised that we haven't yet seen the emergence of a new company specifically making quality Disc Golf Targets (Baskets, whatever). It's a completely different manufacturing process, as well as sales pipeline, compared to discs - but yet disc manufacturers are the only major players in the game.

Thinking aloud here:

The only company that I can really think of that has attempted this is/was Arroyo, but unfortunately those targets are just not good quality. Not trying to be rude, just my opinion from experience.

There are a couple extremely small companies trying to do this; El Guapo baskets up in the PacWest immediately springs to mind (they're on Facebook, started as a dude just making them and IIRC he recently sent a target to the PDGA for some sort of certification) and Predator disc sports or some such name in Ohio. If you watch the Red, White and Booom footage from the last couple years (I know this year, think it was the year before as well) the second hole at Belmont park features one of their baskets, and there's a course near Cincinnati that has them installed, I believe.

As to your broader point about the basket manufacturing market, to me it's one of those things where, as mentioned before, it's a smaller market within an already (comparatively) small market with limited additional growth. How many times do courses upgrade baskets, maybe once every 5 or 10 years or so, if ever? Comparing that to how many people buy every new disc released because it will revolutionize the way they play disc golf or let them add an extra 200' to their shot in an instant, it's not hard to see baskets and course materials as a somewhat necessary but not huge growth market, especially compared to discs.

So you can probably look at it more than two ways, but the two obvious ones are necessity and advertising. Necessity because people gotta have courses to sling plastic, so if you don't bite the bullet and make the baskets who else will, and advertising because you're putting your name, whether through the huge logo (ever wonder why the Innova logo is so giant on the band?) or the unique design of the basket (a Mach 3 is pretty instantly recognizable, and a Chainstar is somewhat easy to spot by the single bottom ring). So after someone has played their round they've been seeing your logo and signature for eighteen holes, and it's the last little bit of disc golf logos they'll see besides their discs until the next round. Maybe not a major driver, but still something to think about.

That's not to say there isn't money to be made off baskets, but compared to the disc market and just the optics, I seriously doubt there's nearly as much to be made. Which makes it hard for companies that JUST do baskets to make enough for it to ever be more than just a side hobby that maybe makes you a few bucks and lets you write off that sweet new welder and welding mask on your taxes.

 

[JTacoma03]

Superior in every way except upkeep. From what a couple of experienced disc golf course designers tell me, artificial turf is superior in feel, in traction, and in many ways. However, most disc golf courses need minimal maintenance. And without regular upkeep, turf will not weather well in the elements. I know. I've been a school administrator for years and we had artificial turf on two of our sport stadiums, and on a set of practice fields. We had definite regular maintenance on the turf.

Respectfully, I disagree. I've heard this argument before, but the truth is if you build them correctly, maintenance is quite easy and minimal. I can't speak to all turf solutions that exist out there, but this is true for DiscGolfPark at least.

Our TeePads require infill, so all you need to do is brush additional sand in occasionally, or when you see it getting bare. It's minimal maintenance, and the turf survives winters covered in ice (Finland), or being flooded (Louisiana) with no problem.

I think use of turf that doesn't require infill has the issues you're describing, because while it seems logical that infill-less turf is less work, it actually wears much quicker. What the sand infill does for ours is allows the player to rotate their heel or toe on the sand itself, not on top of the blades of turf, so as long as that infill is present it keeps the friction consistent and doesn't wear the mat out as quickly.

Where the workload is more difficult than concrete is during the installation. Properly installed TeePads take more time and careful attention to get right. No arguments from me there...concrete is easier and quicker to install.

 

[puck'n'disc5]

Fail. You didn't include Lethal Weapon.

Well, I for one, don't bring lethal weapons with me when I go fishing. Sheesh.

 

[lyleoross]

I'm late to the basket discussion, but I think it's hilarious that people insist that the consensus best player in the World, back to back World Champion, and probably the best putter ever, needs to change his putting style to accommodate for the baskets.

It's laughable.

I said the same thing. It's laughable that the best ball golfers in the world have to take some off their putts so they'll stay in the cup. They need to either enlarge the cup, two feet across, or make a catching device.

 

[lyleoross]

Respectfully, I disagree. I've heard this argument before, but the truth is if you build them correctly, maintenance is quite easy and minimal. I can't speak to all turf solutions that exist out there, but this is true for DiscGolfPark at least.

Our TeePads require infill, so all you need to do is brush additional sand in occasionally, or when you see it getting bare. It's minimal maintenance, and the turf survives winters covered in ice (Finland), or being flooded (Louisiana) with no problem.

I think use of turf that doesn't require infill has the issues you're describing, because while it seems logical that infill-less turf is less work, it actually wears much quicker. What the sand infill does for ours is allows the player to rotate their heel or toe on the sand itself, not on top of the blades of turf, so as long as that infill is present it keeps the friction consistent and doesn't wear the mat out as quickly.

Where the workload is more difficult than concrete is during the installation. Properly installed TeePads take more time and careful attention to get right. No arguments from me there...concrete is easier and quicker to install.

Wait, did you just tell a school administrator who has artificial turf fields, that he's wrong? Even you gave some caveats, necessary to decrease wear and tear.

I've seen few things that don't require regular maintenance except concrete. Even the blacktop surfaces down here do. I'm betting turf will too. I'd still use it, I'd just plan in maintenance. That's not gonna work so well in a high use public park though.