McBeth vs. Climo

[jmdaire27]

Nobody thinks Crosby is close to Gretzky and you'll be hard pressed to find people that put James over Jordan. Climo had his time. P McB is just better.

My point is that these players at their greatest don't overlap, so comparing them to each other is, in the least, difficult. There will always be great players in all sports over some time frame, but sports and athletes evolve, so it just is what it is. Climo=great (in the 90's) McBeth=great (in the now).

 

[Jay Dub]

If for whatever reason McBeth was to stop playing after this year I don't see any way anyone can say he's better than Climo. And because of that at this point Kenny wins GOAT.

To the people who say Climo's competition was not as good as McBeths yet never saw Climo or his competitors play....hahahaha! hahahahahahaha!!!

I gotta stop....hahahahahaha.....*breath*.

 

[ThrowBot]

I think there's a false narrative in the common point that Climo dominated in the 90's vs. Paul dominating in the 2010's. And the falsehood is the implicit notion that each of those decades is basically "one thing" -- 90's was putters/mids/fairways on overall shorter courses, whereas in the 2010's pretty much all top pros grew up throwing modern wide-rimmed drivers, and courses for top level competition are generally geared towards that truth.

And here's the rub: that's more or less a fair assessment of the current decade. But the Climo era was a period of massive evolutionary changes in the sport. Climo played through that transition and continually dominated. I'll illustrate this concept with a few snapshots of the disc tech throughout his career:

1987: This is the starting point of my timeline because it's the first year that Climo was a registered PDGA member. Also, interestingly, the same year that the Roc (and Hammer and Stingray) became PDGA approved molds. Those are all 1.2cm rim width, and they were the first Innova molds to exceed 1.0 in rim width. So keep that in mind as we fast-forward: When Climo was starting out, it was honestly all putters, with mids just starting to hit the market.

1994: Partway through the glory years. Climo has spent a half decade winning MPO World's. Meanwhile, Innova has spent the same half decade dabbling in what we now consider fairway driver rim widths (1.6-1.7cm) such as the Scorpion, Viper, Whippet, and Gazelle. Yet despite this proliferation of an entirely new speed class of discs, Climo is not only able to cope with the change, but he's actively racking up consecutive world titles in a way that was unprecedented at that time.

2002: Alright. The consecutive World's wins are a thing of the past, but Climo still notches his 11x this year. And that's despite the advent of another new speed class of discs, with popular modern control driver molds (1.9cm rim) having been on the market for a few years (FB and Valk both approved in '99). And discs aren't just getting faster but this is also a time when plastic durability skyrockets: late 10x, candy pro, and CE discs are all being run in during this period. (What a time to be alive!)

2007: Ok, so we're well beyond the most dominant years of Climo's MPO career. But he still wins the USDGC title! And 2007 is also the year that the Destroyer mold gets approved by the PDGA. Now, I'm not saying that the Destroyer (2.2cm) is the end-all be-all of fat driver rims, but you can't deny that it's still a benchmark high speed distance driver to this day. Perhaps the benchmark. So as a tailing bookend to my timeline, you have true honest-to-goodness modern distance drivers available for use, and Champ and Star plastics are on the market as well. And Climo still manages to win (depending on who you ask) the second most or THE most prestigious title of the year.

So really, the "Climo Era" of disc golf encompasses two decades of revolution, spanning through:

• Putters & Mids, plastic is baseline (or mid-grade at best).
• Putters/Mids/Fairways, still not great plastic.
• Putters/Mids/Fairways/Control, some truly amazing disc materials available.
• Putters/Mids/Fairways/Control/Distance, basically modern plastics available.

And as the game changed around him, Climo not only survived as relevant, but maintained the ability to win at the very highest levels of competition. He didn't just win in one era, he won in multiple eras.

That's why I think it's fair to say that Climo is the Greatest disc golfer ever, while I can still agree that McBeth is the Best disc golfer ever. (Meaning: McBeth in his prime would beat Climo in his prime, if they were to play on some hypothetical "middle ground" course that was an even mix of "Climo Era" courses and "McBeth Era" courses.)

 

[aphilso1]

I think there's a false narrative in the common point that Climo dominated in the 90's vs. Paul dominating in the 2010's. And the falsehood is the implicit notion that each of those decades is basically "one thing" -- 90's was putters/mids/fairways on overall shorter courses, whereas in the 2010's pretty much all top pros grew up throwing modern wide-rimmed drivers, and courses for top level competition are generally geared towards that truth.

And here's the rub: that's more or less a fair assessment of the current decade. But the Climo era was a period of massive evolutionary changes in the sport. Climo played through that transition and continually dominated. I'll illustrate this concept with a few snapshots of the disc tech throughout his career:

1987: This is the starting point of my timeline because it's the first year that Climo was a registered PDGA member. Also, interestingly, the same year that the Roc (and Hammer and Stingray) became PDGA approved molds. Those are all 1.2cm rim width, and they were the first Innova molds to exceed 1.0 in rim width. So keep that in mind as we fast-forward: When Climo was starting out, it was honestly all putters, with mids just starting to hit the market.

1994: Partway through the glory years. Climo has spent a half decade winning MPO World's. Meanwhile, Innova has spent the same half decade dabbling in what we now consider fairway driver rim widths (1.6-1.7cm) such as the Scorpion, Viper, Whippet, and Gazelle. Yet despite this proliferation of an entirely new speed class of discs, Climo is not only able to cope with the change, but he's actively racking up consecutive world titles in a way that was unprecedented at that time.

2002: Alright. The consecutive World's wins are a thing of the past, but Climo still notches his 11x this year. And that's despite the advent of another new speed class of discs, with popular modern control driver molds (1.9cm rim) having been on the market for a few years (FB and Valk both approved in '99). And discs aren't just getting faster but this is also a time when plastic durability skyrockets: late 10x, candy pro, and CE discs are all being run in during this period. (What a time to be alive!)

2007: Ok, so we're well beyond the most dominant years of Climo's MPO career. But he still wins the USDGC title! And 2007 is also the year that the Destroyer mold gets approved by the PDGA. Now, I'm not saying that the Destroyer (2.2cm) is the end-all be-all of fat driver rims, but you can't deny that it's still a benchmark high speed distance driver to this day. Perhaps the benchmark. So as a tailing bookend to my timeline, you have true honest-to-goodness modern distance drivers available for use, and Champ and Star plastics are on the market as well. And Climo still manages to win (depending on who you ask) the second most or THE most prestigious title of the year.

So really, the "Climo Era" of disc golf encompasses two decades of revolution, spanning through:

• Putters & Mids, plastic is baseline (or mid-grade at best).
• Putters/Mids/Fairways, still not great plastic.
• Putters/Mids/Fairways/Control, some truly amazing disc materials available.
• Putters/Mids/Fairways/Control/Distance, basically modern plastics available.

And as the game changed around him, Climo not only survived as relevant, but maintained the ability to win at the very highest levels of competition. He didn't just win in one era, he won in multiple eras.

That's why I think it's fair to say that Climo is the Greatest disc golfer ever, while I can still agree that McBeth is the Best disc golfer ever. (Meaning: McBeth in his prime would beat Climo in his prime, if they were to play on some hypothetical "middle ground" course that was an even mix of "Climo Era" courses and "McBeth Era" courses.)

This is one of the best internet argument posts I have ever read. I originally voted McBeth, but I think you may have convinced me otherwise.

 

[F. Howl]

Posted a comment on facebook, and the Champ and the Beast weighed in:

 

[discerdoo]

^^Ha, Champ was a little salty.

 

[Three Putt]

McBeth really ought to know that Climo is from a different era where you didn't have to figure out a social media voice, so drawing him out into social media is going to get you the "on-the-course-trash-talk" stuff that doesn't translate very well to facebook or wherever. Everybody in disc golf should have enough respect for Climo to keep him off social media. :|

 

[F. Howl]

This was the best bit of the exchange:

Paul to Ken, "Will do."

 

[Meillo]

Sad and unnecessary ...

Both are outstanding disc golfers.

 

[scooby snack]

Innova made a disc honoring both players. It's the Champ Beast!

My 2 cents.

 

[Lemur]

Did this really happen? Or is this one of those staged conversations with fake accounts. If it is true... this is quite sad.

 

[biscoe]

Innova made a disc honoring both players. It's the Champ Beast!

My 2 cents.

...and it has Barry's signature...

 

[biscoe]

Did this really happen? Or is this one of those staged conversations with fake accounts. If it is true... this is quite sad.

Pretty sure it is legit. What's sad about it? Competitive people acting competitive?

 

[Jay Dub]

No this isn't sad, it's fun.
I was disappointed there were no "Your Momma" jabs.

 

[F. Howl]

Did this really happen? Or is this one of those staged conversations with fake accounts. If it is true... this is quite sad.

It's real, but I think it's some good competitive ribbing. It was a comment under this MurderMike meme:
https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=2967256106663907&set=a.162357733820439

 

[Jugular]

Climo had the same discs available to him as all other competitors, McBeth the same (given he could play for any sponsor if he really wanted to). I don't see how the development of the game around each player says very much about them, it's not like the player body types have changed that significantly. Do we have lots of examples of players not able to keep up with the changing environment around them?

 

[Three Putt]

Did this really happen? Or is this one of those staged conversations with fake accounts. If it is true... this is quite sad.

Pretty sure it is legit. What's sad about it? Competitive people acting competitive?

No this isn't sad, it's fun.
I was disappointed there were no "Your Momma" jabs.

I'm sure it's that same sort of good-natured competitive back and forth you hear on the course, it just doesn't translate well to text with no facial expressions to go with it.

 

[PWaggoner]

Until last year it was considered 50/50 whether wysocki or Mcbeth was even better.

I'm a big Mcbeth fan. I enjoy how his seemingly small stature doesn't effect his ability to perform against the typical type that fits disc golf. Tall, lanky arms doesn't give a advantage against Mcbeth like it should perhaps.

This conversation is disrespectful to Climo. If Climo grew up in the age of mcbeth you can be 100% sure he would be a powerful figure in the game, wielding BH and FH equally dominant as well as the fast, direct putting style of today.

Today, If I was asked to compare a pitch putting, BH dominate player against a Mcbeth and asked who would win, 100% Mcbeth, but this isn't exactly a honest assessment of skills across decades

And climos competition wasn't slouches either. Moser, Stokely, schultz, Russell.

I even doubt mcbeths ability to dominate If climo didn't act as a pillar to be dominated. Which IMO he has yet to do.

 

[swhite]

I prefer that current leading figures in any popular field of activity express more humility and more appreciation for previous leaders in that field, like Isaac Newton's supposed quote:
"If I have seen further than others, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants."

Paul stands to gain nothing of value by diminishing Climo's legacy. He easily could lose the respect of those who find it distasteful.

The picture that Paul put into his Facebook post appears to be at Fountain Hills, AZ. It wasn't the World Championship, or any major victory. The photographer just happened to catch Climo in a bad light while McBeth is enjoying the victory. And, when was this Fountain Hills victory? Around 2012 maybe, putting Climo around 45 or so. Good for you Paul. You won against a player well out of his prime, and you're still going to revel in it now. I find doing so to be in bad taste.

 

[Casey 1988]

Climo had the same discs available to him as all other competitors, McBeth the same (given he could play for any sponsor if he really wanted to). I don't see how the development of the game around each player says very much about them, it's not like the player body types have changed that significantly. Do we have lots of examples of players not able to keep up with the changing environment around them?

I get this because after years as an Innova Sponsored player McBeth switches to Discraft in late 2018 and in one year learns the discs though some help of discs made with his input more then ever and wins worlds. McBeth had to learn some new plastics, though Z and Champion are very similar, ESP is similar to Starm and So on. Some discs like Z flex does not have a floppy Champion in regular production so his Z flex Zone might at first be bit odd nor does Innova have a close for Titanium or Big Z, a new plastic that Paul got for his driving putter in Big Z. Also the minimum basket cage height changed during his time winning in Open, so that brands like DGA and others that were using the old minimum height for baskets had to change.

Then Climo had to change to win when Disc Golf went through its second biggest changes, plastics and the rim wars in the late 1990's to early 2000's. Until in 2007 they made it so 2.5 CM rim was the max width. Climo was able to remain relevant through his changes as well adapting just as well.

Both my arguments to me makes a wash, but more so as neither competed with the other, with the discs of each others era. Paul using his era of discs same with Climo and plastics and playing a round on a modern course, then both players using Climo era discs in baseline-Pro plastics on the kind of courses or even some of those courses if still there that Climo played for his worlds titles. But both players would have to be in there respective primes which means nobody can play each other right now even if the Corona Virus was not keeping us from doing so.