Movement in top 10

[zjones9]

Flyboy without the BnB and without the Planes is not a five, IMHO.

FTFY

IMO, Flyboy is the only 5 I have played, with the IDGC courses, Renny Gold, and Ashe County Park coming in as solid 4.5's. I disagree that Flyboy is made up of mostly average holes. I think that almost every hole is distinct and challenging in its own way.

 

[turbosteve]

FTFY

IMO, Flyboy is the only 5 I have played, with the IDGC courses, Renny Gold, and Ashe County Park coming in as solid 4.5's. I disagree that Flyboy is made up of mostly average holes. I think that almost every hole is distinct and challenging in its own way.

While Flyboy has some interesting and cool holes I felt that there were too many filler holes. The Jackson Course at the IDGC is way better in my opinion.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

I think we need a Worst 10 Courses list up there, too; courses that when you're passing through town thinking, "Hey, maybe I should play that course?" seeing it on that list will let you know to keep driving to the next course, or the next town for that matter. Just ask yourself, if a town can't even offer up a decent course, is there really a reason to stop?

 

[TOURNEYPLAYER]

FTFY

IMO, Flyboy is the only 5 I have played, with the IDGC courses, Renny Gold, and Ashe County Park coming in as solid 4.5's. I disagree that Flyboy is made up of mostly average holes. I think that almost every hole is distinct and challenging in its own way.

I didn't say they weren't unique. But not amazing. Everytime I play a new course a lot of the holes are unique. At Flyboy, 3, 25, Dammit, wise old disc golf tree are my favorites.. but there are a lot of holes that are just regular holes. I absolutely love Flyboy and it is my number 1. But its not solely bc of the golf.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Just in case you were interested...

Here's a quick and dirty "Bottom 10." Searched for lowest rated with 2+ reviews (I figured there should at least be more than 1 person's opinion):

7 courses rated 0.0:
Black Hawk Lake State Park, Lake View, IA
Whitesville City Park, Whitesville, KY
The Abbey Resort DGC, Fontana, WI
School Section Lake Frisbee Golf, Mecosta, MI
Plum Creek, Lexington, NE
Duck Pond Rec. Area, Fontana, WI
Edwin M. Griffin Preserve, Spartanburg, SC

5 courses rated 0.25:
Chapman Park, Chapman, NE
K.O.A. Campground, Owatonna, MN
Wyman Park, Sullivan, IL
Casselton DGC, Casselton, ND
Unity College DGC, Unity, ME

So, how many of these have you played?
I saw Mashnut's hit at least one of 'em.

 

[Stardoggy]

Here's a quick and dirty "Bottom 10." Searched for lowest rated with 2+ reviews (I figured there should at least be more than 1 person's opinion):

7 courses rated 0.0:
Black Hawk Lake State Park, Lake View, IA
Whitesville City Park, Whitesville, KY
The Abbey Resort DGC, Fontana, WI
School Section Lake Frisbee Golf, Mecosta, MI
Plum Creek, Lexington, NE
Duck Pond Rec. Area, Fontana, WI
Edwin M. Griffin Preserve, Spartanburg, SC

5 courses rated 0.25:
Chapman Park, Chapman, NE
K.O.A. Campground, Owatonna, MN
Wyman Park, Sullivan, IL
Casselton DGC, Casselton, ND
Unity College DGC, Unity, ME

So, how many of these have you played?
I saw Mashnut's hit at least one of 'em.

Typical WI homer-ism.

 

[TOURNEYPLAYER]

I like this review. straight forward and to the point. gets a thumb up from me.

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/reviews.php?id=1339&mode=rev

 

[New013]

Flyboy's drawback (if you want to call it that) is that it's admittedly designed with something for everyone in mind, it wasn't set for one skill level. This is part of the reason why it is so great to so many people and not so great to those who have a higher skill level or those who are really in to course design.

I think if you cut out 9 holes and just play an 18 hole loop you're potentially playing one of the best layouts there is. I also don't think you can really call all of those 9 you take out filler holes, on many courses those holes fit right in it's just because they're juxtaposed to some of the most amazing holes in existence that you say well that's out of place.

The only holes at Flyboy I just don't really like are 12, 18 and 22. To me they are all three the proverbial filler holes with nothing really to offer but getting you from point A to point B. Then to me the holes that don't really fit in with the rest of the course are 8, 16, 20 and 26. I think all of those holes are good on most courses they just seem out of place.

Now let's just say you wanted to have some sort of major pro event there and needed to carve out your championship 18, here's how I'd go about it.

1 - I'd back the tee up across the creek so the road OB is more in play and move the basket back in the gap a bit so it's a tougher par 4.
2 - It's fine as it is
3 - Yeah
4 - I'd move the basket to the right side of the hillside so it's more of a giant anny, and farther up the hill closer to the road so it plays as an OB threat.
5 - Here I'd play 5's pad area in the road to 6's basket so you're throwing across the small pond to a thin green with OB water on the left. Then you'd have like a 430' tough shot with a 380' water carry. For the other divisions outside of Open they could play 6 straight up.
6 - Hole 7, par 5 yeah it's fine like it is.
7 - Here I'm skipping 8 and playing Hole 9. I'm not sure how the top players do on this hole as is, you may have to move the pad up 30' to make getting a two more common or they may be able to deuce it as is.
8 - Hole 10, solid technical par 4
9 - Play 11 but make an artificial island green
10 - Skip 12 and go to 13 which works fine as a par 3 as is
11 - Hole 14 except I'd move the pad over to the left more so you'd have to throw more towards the water and hyzer back in towards the basket, maybe lengthen it a bit as well.
12 - Play 15 Damnit, works fine as a par 4 for the pros
13 - Play 16 except move the basket across the creek over closer to that waterpool area
14 - Play 17 except move the pad back a bit
15 - Skip 18 and play 19 as is
16 - Skip 20-23 and go straight to 24, yeah it'll be a weird transition but the transition after 19 is already long. I'd also move the pad back and make that dirt road in front of the basket OB.
17 - 25 as is
18 - 27 as is par 4

There's my thoughts on Flyboy and my ideal par 63 layout.

 

[Dave242]

Flyboy's drawback (if you want to call it that) is that it's admittedly designed with something for everyone in mind, it wasn't set for one skill level. This is part of the reason why it is so great to so many people and not so great to those who have a higher skill level or those who are really in to course design.

Two other important drawbacks for me at Fly Boy are natural beauty & seclusion. Holes 10-14 & 17 provide exactly what I love....but that is not enough to counterbalance most of the rest of the course.

 

[Dave242]

If someone thinks a course is a 5.0 on their scale and in their experience.....well then it is indeed a 5.0 to them.

Disagree on the first part. ..... goes back to the whole objective versus subjective rating. People rate up, or rate down, courses for the most inane reasons.

Here is a good example of what you are saying which I just saw from a Bronze rated reviewer (Gave "D" a 5.0):

D is a must play course, but being about the same player as you if you can only play one, E may be a better option. Just as good of a course a lot of beauty and is a bit easier. E easy makes my top 5 courses, and although D is a top 5 course, I don't think it makes my top 5 courses, although I rated it better then E because it deserves a better score.

I hear you saying that you think this sort of things decreases the validity of DGCR. I used to think that way.....but I changed my mind. While I still disagree that this person's rationale for their rating criteria makes sense, I do not think it decreases the validity of DGCR's data......since chances are someone with equal and opposite rational and ratings cancels this out (in this case, that person is me).

 

[mndiscg]

Here's a quick and dirty "Bottom 10." Searched for lowest rated with 2+ reviews (I figured there should at least be more than 1 person's opinion):

7 courses rated 0.0:
Black Hawk Lake State Park, Lake View, IA
Whitesville City Park, Whitesville, KY
The Abbey Resort DGC, Fontana, WI
School Section Lake Frisbee Golf, Mecosta, MI
Plum Creek, Lexington, NE
Duck Pond Rec. Area, Fontana, WI
Edwin M. Griffin Preserve, Spartanburg, SC

5 courses rated 0.25:
Chapman Park, Chapman, NE
K.O.A. Campground, Owatonna, MN
Wyman Park, Sullivan, IL
Casselton DGC, Casselton, ND
Unity College DGC, Unity, ME

So, how many of these have you played?
I saw Mashnut's hit at least one of 'em.

I played the 3 highlighted. Or tried to play at least. The reason that they are rated this bad is because they are borderline unplayable. And Plum Creek is just plain sketch.

 

[ZMan44]

Back to the issue of amenities...does anyone else get the feeling that this just part of the sport's evolution?

When I started playing about 10 years ago, most courses were in parks. In the past few years, we've seen a greater number of private courses emerge with clubhouses and pro shops. Do you think this is going to become more common? Will private courses ever rival the number of public courses? Who knows?

I think the current imbalance of private and public courses causes a psychological bias which inflates the numbers for private courses. Let me briefly explain. 1) Older disc golfers may see a nice clubhouse, and remembering the good old days, think about how far the sport has come and how cool it is to have a clubhouse. This is before even playing the course itself. They're going in with a much more positive mindset than if the course has a picninc table and a porta-potty by #1. This causes an elevation of their opinion of that private course being stepping on the #1 tee. 2) Younger disc golfers who play private courses regularly are likely going to look at the courses without such amenities as inferior. For instance, I have a cousin from Maine where private courses are the norm. Last time he was here we played a local course and he was appalled that there was no bathroom with running water near the course. To me, that's the norm...but to some it's not. I think this lowers the perception of public courses to some who now expect amenities. 3) In general, and I think we can all agree on this, disc golfers (for the most part) are a respectful group. When we see someone who has gone to a lot of trouble and spent a lot of their money to construct a new course, it's almost second nature to be overly appreciative. We're good folks. But that sentimentality often bleeds into reviews on this site. Again, I think that's justified, but it is apparent. I know when I think about the owners of private courses I've played, they were all great guys, and it's hard to critique their courses because you think anything negative might discourage them or hurt their feelings. (because most of them visit DGCR regularly)

In essence, I will always rate the course first...and any amenities will be given secondary (and minimal) consideration in my number rating. That being said, I can understand the dynamic of someone who bumps up a course significantly because "OMG, the clubhouse has a pool table and snacks!" As Dave242 says, our rankings will probably balance each other out.

 

[scarpfish]

Chapman Park, Chapman, NE

Had the misfortune of playing this about five years ago. I've seen plenty of courses that skirted around baseball fields before, but until this had never seen one with holes actually on the baseball field. There was literally a basket about twenty feet from the third base dugout, I think there was another out in right field. Second worst course that I've ever played.

For whatever reason, the worst course is rated a 1.30. :\

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Had the misfortune of playing this about five years ago. I've seen plenty of courses that skirted around baseball fields before, but until this had never seen one with holes actually on the baseball field. There was literally a basket about twenty feet from the third base dugout, I think there was another out in right field. Second worst course that I've ever played.

For whatever reason, the worst course is rated a 1.30. :\

^ 1.30? Not even close to bottom feeder status 10!
Apparently Scarp doesn't appreciate this "designer's" desire to multi-task this piece of dirt.
So, do we need a "Worst Courses" thread and /or list?

 

[New013]

the two worst courses i've played were pretty bad.

Avalon Peaks and Smithfield Community Park.

I have no idea how Avalon Peaks is rated as high as it is.... Most of the holes are just random baskets in one area under a power line with 3' tall grass and no markings of where the pads are.

Smithfield deserves it's 0.5 rating although i'd call that overrated. It actually has a couple of decent holes but they're all in danger of killing people, especially the one that wants you to hyzer over the baseball field. There's also a hole with a teepad, a wall of trees no disc could go through and then the basket.

 

[chevis]

here's a thread about some bad courses: 0-rated-courses

 

[donnyv]

I hear ya zman
Its hard to put the public and private courses in the same category. They're similar but different animals. I tend to give private courses higher grades because I know how much it takes to pull it off. I expect more from the public courses because they USUALLY have more resources at their disposal were we don't USUALLY have those luxuries of tax payer money, park maintance crew, land, and on and on.

Not saying one is better than the other but I just expect more from the larger entities. Now if we can just get more funding for those public courses...
Who knows

 

[Dave242]

I hear ya zman
Its hard to put the public and private courses in the same category. They're similar but different animals. I tend to give private courses higher grades because I know how much it takes to pull it off. I expect more from the public courses because they USUALLY have more resources at their disposal were we don't USUALLY have those luxuries of tax payer money, park maintance crew, land, and on and on.

Not saying one is better than the other but I just expect more from the larger entities. Now if we can just get more funding for those public courses...
Who knows

I realize you intentionally use the qualifier "USUALLY", but this is really really unfair to the many public courses that are so only in that they are on government land but exist and are maintained by exactly the same heroic efforts of a handful (or fingerful) of individuals.

I actually hold private courses to a higher level and expect more from them in a DG sense since they do not have the constraints on the design like public courses usually do. They can do things that public courses can't/won't.....and I can "blame" the lack of these things squarely on DG-related reasons.

 

[donnyv]

I realize you intentionally use the qualifier "USUALLY", but this is really really unfair to the many public courses that are so only in that they are on government land but exist and are maintained by exactly the same heroic efforts of a handful (or fingerful) of individuals.

I actually hold private courses to a higher level and expect more from them in a DG sense since they do not have the constraints on the design like public courses usually do. They can do things that public courses can't/won't.....and I can "blame" the lack of these things squarely on DG-related reasons.

I hear your valid points too dave. Private course do have more freedom to adjust things and usually don't have the traffic and problems public courses have. It's just one advantage my course has over a couple public 9-holers I did last year. I did my best to design with what I was given but they're so low on the totem-pole in the park's priorities that they do not get maintained as well as other parts of the park. Often, I'll have to haul my own mower 45 minutes one way to the park and spend quite a few hours out there. Then it's time to bust out the weed trimmer for another hour or two. There is just no money out there for these smaller public parks to do it all either. It just makes the design process tougher to avoid having a ton of grass to cut.

I guess everyone has they're own way of rating courses though. I do appreciate the effort you guys put into your ratings and it IS helpful to more people than you think. I've only been able to play about 24 courses (all in MI)in the last 16 years so I have a ways to go before I can truly know which is the best.

 

[smyith]

I realize you intentionally use the qualifier "USUALLY", but this is really really unfair to the many public courses that are so only in that they are on government land but exist and are maintained by exactly the same heroic efforts of a handful (or fingerful) of individuals.

and with the economy in the dumps still this si becoming more and more common for local clubs to take over maintain public courses. i know in MI this has become very common place.


****
Having played 4 of the current top 10 courses, i do think there is one course that does not belong on the top 10, Granite Ridge. Yes it is a beautiful course, and fun to play, but compared the competition I dont think it should be there. Heck i am not sure if I would even put it in my top 20 and i have only played around 130 courses. but at the same time, Flip City and BRP would barely make my top 10 (let the hate begin).