My Problem with Worlds Final 9

[MikePinchico]

I agree opti, I was at the event and we left for the final nine. I watched the women start the final and all I wanted to do was play. You can only watch for so long. So I had the idea that delaveaga was going to be empty due to the finals. So Jimbosprint and I went and played to a nearly empty world championship condition course. Screw the open final nine, I'll just go play one of the best courses on the planet.

 

[Billym]

Were any of you there did you play Pinto yet? The Final 9 consisted of holes both temporary and not.
If you have played Pinto and know #2 then you will know it is now walk in the park. Tons of top players took OB penaties on #2 and Paige sealed her win on this hole.
In fact #1 which was also played is much easier and still a tricky drive. Then they also played #18 with the pin extended over 100 feet from normal. None of these are Soccer field holes.
As for the goal, it took away the straight shot at the pin and forced you to throw through a grove of trees at the end of your drive.

Go ask anyone from your area who attended what they thought of the Worlds layouts and the courses and they will all give you a huge :thmbup:

I laugh at all the judgement and "hating" on Worlds. It was Killer. Too bad you had to watch on a tiny screen in your officeopcorn:

 

[Deadhead282]

How about the 09 Kc worlds? Open course that had a what 6 hole play off that avery had to go threw to win? and that final hole the other day had plenty of difficulty, for the WPO Val gave up all hope when she had a poor drive followed by the tree she hit on her up. Like said earlier you do have 100 + holes to make your moves.. That course had lots of ob to worry about anyway, which i believe josh and the rest foudn them self in one or twice to give up hope

 

[Smigles]

1 : Why do you talk about giving the other guys a chance to catch up ? If I remember correctly, Nate also played very well on the less open courses. Why should he start messing up all a sudden becasue the final 9 are a bit more complicated ?

2 : The worlds is a entire week, played over many different courses. You have it all. If you want to watch exciting holes ( whatever you understand as exciting ) why dont you go during the week and watch the lead cart on some course that you find exciting ?

3 : You make it sound as if it is a PDGA decision and it is forced on the TDs. I have no clue about pdga politics, but if that is the case, the only chance to change something is to get the pdga to change their minds on that topic. You are probably better off talking to someone in the pdga that you know and trying to convince him.

 

[TOURNEYPLAYER]

PDGA Website pisses me off.

^^^THIS^^^

But I will agree with opti also. I am not a fan of wide open dg. or gimmicky ob. i got to watch the Final nine at the DG Hall of Fame Classic and they played it on two of the three courses. they picked holes that were camera friendly but by no means boring. and Will actually lost it by hitting a tree and going into a creek while Dave and Avery both threw great shots. this wasnt even really a tough hole. 17 on the Steady Ed. I was thoroughly entertained as were most of the 40-50 people who stuck around to watch. so not all Final 9s are boring.

 

[ViolaBouquet]

I love the final nine. The lead card for women was tied going into it, and ended with a 3 stroke difference. It is set up for spectators to watch the finals.

 

[chrishysell]

I used to complain about playing all weekend in the woods at Pawpaw and having to play only the open holes in the final nine because it was spectator friendly. It takes some of the skill away and showcases the big WOW distance throws.

 

[esdubya]

The OB at the Pinto final 9 definitely made a difference in the women's final results. Val went OB on the 2nd (hole B?) final 9 hole when her tee shot hung out on the right side too much and got rejected by the posts.

I thought the final 9 and coverage were great this year, especially compared to years past.

 

[chrishysell]

I never got to see any of the coverage but I have heard from a few people that discgolfplanet was using my image without permission.

 

[Smigles]

It takes some of the skill away and showcases the big WOW distance throws.

What's wrong with showcasing the big distance throws ?

what's more impressive ( to a non-golfer ) in your opinion ?

a ) seeing 4 pros all throw over 500 foot spot on
b ) seeng a 250 foot throw trough some forest where 1-2 of the 4 people still have ugly encounters with trees even though they are supposed to be the 4 best players in the world.

Now keep in mind that I am not talking about you, but about potential spectators. I know that when I play and people watch me that I get more wow's for a 350 foot noob hyzer than for a nice placement shot that lands right under the basket.

 

[chrishysell]

I really just am jealous of anyone who throws over 300ft. It's an issue i'm working on with my shrink.

 

[Stan McDaniel]

Probably the only thing that can be done but I don't like it

So we gimmick up the showcase of disc golf :doh:

I would be curious where the final 9 in Charlotte will be held

Renny Gold final 9 at least has some true risk/reward chances and putting is an adventure and is semi open so a gallery and filming could occur.

I'd prefer a true mix of great tighter woods elevation open shots and water but I dont know how you'd accomodate the filming...oh wait maybe have more than 1 camera :doh:

A high probablility that the finals will be at Hornet's Next Park, mainly in the front area. It will probably be a mix of existing holes and utilizing other areas, like the lake and ballfields. I suspect that there will be some Winthropesque yellow rope in places too.

 

[GT Chris]

I'm not dissing Nate

I just think the final 9 should be something more than a victory parade on a soccer field....it should be competitive and have some drama

Imagine the 4 x100 relay in olympics with the final 100 just a stroll to the finish and smile for the camera

The Daytona 500 just everyone go 35 mph please we dont want blurry pics of the racecars

Championship Game 7 hey lets all just go through the motions so the camera guys can get good pics

Only in Disc Golf do we get a farce of a finish...typically (I'm sure there have been tighter finishes but it shouldnt come down to a driving and putting contest...there are other elements to our sport

Imagine the last stage of the Tour de France. There isn't an official rule, but an unspoken rule among the racers that you do not attack the leader on the last stage. If you are leading the Tour going into the last day, then you have already won it. So during a lot of the stage you see teams all riding together side by side, guys drinking champagne and various other riders all posing for photos. That's a huge international event where the final stage is basically a victory lap through Paris, just going through the motions for pictures/traditions. Except of course for the sprinters.

It doesn't take away from the event at all. If you haven't taken the lead by the last day, you don't complain because you had nearly three weeks of racing to do so. Directly analogous to the final 9 and multiple rounds leading up to it.

 

[esdubya]

Imagine the last stage of the Tour de France. There isn't an official rule, but an unspoken rule among the racers that you do not attack the leader on the last stage. If you are leading the Tour going into the last day, then you have already won it. So during a lot of the stage you see teams all riding together side by side, guys drinking champagne and various other riders all posing for photos. That's a huge international event where the final stage is basically a victory lap through Paris, just going through the motions for pictures/traditions. Except of course for the sprinters.

It doesn't take away from the event at all. If you haven't taken the lead by the last day, you don't complain because you had nearly three weeks of racing to do so. Directly analogous to the final 9 and multiple rounds leading up to it.

I like the comparison.. However the 'no attacking' understanding on the final stage of the tour is more due to the type of stage it is. It isn't unlike any other flat stage in the tour where the overall contenders rarely have any separation in time, and it is much more a stage to showcase the sprinting aspect of the tour.

So 1000 rated players, playing a wide open course would leave very little room for the trailing players to attack. Whether it is a final 9 or not.. For the record I don't think that the Pinto final 9 was like this. Seemed like there were many danger areas for the leader to screw up and get caught. Maybe it was more like a mid-mountain time trial stage.

 

[Apoth]

I wouldn't really call it a farce. It's just a certain type of golf. Guys from Oklahoma will see this thread and wonder WTF we are bitching about because wide-open long disc golf is their game.

So true. I thought the courses looked fine

 

[Cgkdisc]

The bottom line on whether a Final 9 is good from a competitive standpoint is whether there is scoring spread (or a chance for it by design) on each hole and that scoring spread is produced primarily due to skill elements versus luck factors. That's how Houck and I judge whether our Final 9s worked well or not. Open layouts can still produce this scoring spread.

For example, at Highbridge in PW2007, we had the closest finish in Open in a long time until the 6 hole playoff in 2009. At least one of the four players on the Open card in the final 9 shot a score different from the others in the group on all 9 holes for a "perfect" score on spread. And that course was pretty open.

As a side note, the Open Women had the same score on 5 of the 9 holes so there wasn't a decent chance for Des to catch Val. Women should be playing different tees on several holes in the FInal 9 IF the course is fairly wide open. If it's more wooded, then both men and women might see a spread similar to the layout played in Santa Cruz which appeared to work for both men and women, soccer goals notwithstanding.

 

[tistoude]

I have to say that I absolutely did not feel that the final nine was a "victory parade". Of the holes played I think 2 or 3 were easy duece or die but there were two holes played that had huge scoring differences and the remaining holes were only "easy" for a player that can throw 450-500. The only reason there wasn't more drama was that Nate had such a big lead going in and played great during the final nine. He didn't drop a single stroke that I remember and even birdied a couple. How could anyone catch him doing that?

You should focus on the drama that occured for second place between Will and Josh. If Will doesn't worm-burn his drive on the 7th hole, I think he has second place all to himself. Heck if Nikko doesn't go OB a couple of times he would have been in the hunt for second as well.

Kudos to Nate on a great 5 and a half rounds of disc golf and thanks for putting on a great show.

p.s. Seriously, why not move the soccer nets?

 

[NOStheBOSS]

As proven in 09 and this year, the excitement all depends on the score going into the final 9. 09 the course was pretty open but took 15 holes to decide a winner. This year, Nate earned a big lead all week, and was rewarded in the final 9. If there was a 3 way tie for first, with a red hot nikko 2 strokes back, going into the final 9, I don't think anyone would have complained.

 

[scarpfish]

As proven in 09 and this year, the excitement all depends on the score going into the final 9.

And the scores going into that final 9 are determined by the rest of the courses in the tournament.

In all reality, it doesn't matter what kind of course you use for the Final 9. If the leader has a comfortable lead going in, he/she can pretty much play par golf and coast to a win as there are only so many strokes the other players can make up if they do that.

FWIW, here's the men's and women's Final 9 results for the last ten years...

Year Division Winner Runner(s)-Up Margin at Start of Final Nine - Margin at Finish
2011 MPO Nate Doss Will Schusterick / Josh Anthon 6 - 7
2011 FPO Paige Pierce Valarie Jenkins 0 - 3
2010 MPO Eric McCabe J. Anthon / P. Ulibarri / D. Feldberg 3 - 5
2010 FPO Sarah Stanhope Des Reading 12 - 6
2009 MPO Avery Jenkins Josh Anthon 2 - 0*
2009 FPO Valarie Jenkins Des Reading 16 - 14
2008 MPO Dave Feldberg Nate Doss 13 - 14
2008 FPO Valarie Jenkins Des Reading 10 - 12
2007 MPO Nate Doss Markus Källström 2 - 1
2007 FPO Valarie Jenkins Des Reading 4 - 5
2006 MPO Ken Climo Nate Doss 4 - 5
2006 FPO Des Reading Carrie Berlogar / Courtney Peavy 9 - 9
2005 MPO Nate Doss Barry Schultz / Matt Orum 5 - 3
2005 FPO Des Reading Juliana Korver 16 - 18
2004 MPO Barry Schultz Ken Climo 11 - 9
2004 FPO Birgitta Lagerholm Des Reading 5 - 2
2003 MPO Barry Schultz Markus Källström 5 - 6
2003 FPO Juliana Korver Des Reading 7 - 11
2002 MPO Ken Climo Barry Schultz 11 - 14
2002 FPO Des Reading Juliana Korver 6 - 8
* Avery Jenkins won in sudden death


A lot more victory laps there than close races, and even in some of the cases where it looked close by numbers, I'd suspect it was a matter of the eventual winner 'running out the clock' once they were down to the last couple of holes (for lack of a better term).

 

[NOStheBOSS]

And the scores going into that final 9 are determined by the rest of the courses in the tournament.

In all reality, it doesn't matter what kind of course you use for the Final 9. If the leader has a comfortable lead going in, he/she can pretty much play par golf and coast to a win as there are only so many strokes the other players can make up if they do that.

FWIW, here's the men's and women's Final 9 results for the last ten years...

Year Division Winner Runner(s)-Up Margin at Start of Final Nine - Margin at Finish
2011 MPO Nate Doss Will Schusterick / Josh Anthon 6 - 7
2011 FPO Paige Pierce Valarie Jenkins 0 - 3
2010 MPO Eric McCabe J. Anthon / P. Ulibarri / D. Feldberg 3 - 5
2010 FPO Sarah Stanhope Des Reading 12 - 6
2009 MPO Avery Jenkins Josh Anthon 2 - 0*
2009 FPO Valarie Jenkins Des Reading 16 - 14
2008 MPO Dave Feldberg Nate Doss 13 - 14
2008 FPO Valarie Jenkins Des Reading 10 - 12
2007 MPO Nate Doss Markus Källström 2 - 1
2007 FPO Valarie Jenkins Des Reading 4 - 5
2006 MPO Ken Climo Nate Doss 4 - 5
2006 FPO Des Reading Carrie Berlogar / Courtney Peavy 9 - 9
2005 MPO Nate Doss Barry Schultz / Matt Orum 5 - 3
2005 FPO Des Reading Juliana Korver 16 - 18
2004 MPO Barry Schultz Ken Climo 11 - 9
2004 FPO Birgitta Lagerholm Des Reading 5 - 2
2003 MPO Barry Schultz Markus Källström 5 - 6
2003 FPO Juliana Korver Des Reading 7 - 11
2002 MPO Ken Climo Barry Schultz 11 - 14
2002 FPO Des Reading Juliana Korver 6 - 8
* Avery Jenkins won in sudden death


A lot more victory laps there than close races, and even in some of the cases where it looked close by numbers, I'd suspect it was a matter of the eventual winner 'running out the clock' once they were down to the last couple of holes (for lack of a better term).

Exactly.