Natural Hyzer Release

[NickVK]

So I watched the latest driving clinic video posted by Ricky Wysocki and Devan Owens
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psKnJW3ObhQ&t=1168s

Starting at about 21:30-24:00 minute mark Ricky and Devan explain how hes a lefty and has a natural hyzer release and flips up understable discs like the old guys Feldberg and Ken Climo.

I happen to be a lefty with what I find a natural hyzer release just like Owens was talking about and was wondering is it bad in the long run to master understable discs or should I start hyzer flipping overstable discs?
Reading lots of threads they say understable is mostly for beginners but to hear a pro and old pros use them because of there style of release makes me want to continue using mine. Also will this be a big problem in the wind or is that when you really need an overstable wind?

 

[slowplastic]

Yeah what they're saying makes total sense. Most courses have a right to left shot in mind on a ton of holes, since most players throw RHBH. So it's super useful for a lefty to learn to throw understable shots so they can hit those right to left lines easily.

You'll also get the easiest distance throwing understable discs on a hyzer flip. Even in some wind conditions this is the best option. In a tailwind you'll still need to throw understable, and in a crosswind, for you a left to right crosswind, you'll want to hyzer flip something moderately US so it flips up to flat and then the wind keeps the flight plate from turning over further, giving you a long straight shot.

You can't "hyzer flip OS discs" because by definition an OS won't flip. But learning to throw them as well is 100% beneficial. They aren't fun at first, and cost you distance, but once you learn them you'll gain a ton of consistency on flat to fade, pure hyzer, and headwind situations.

Keep in mind that pro's do throw understable discs, just the models are different. For example Ricky likely uses beat Bio Enforcers for his understable drivers, which may have a similar flight path for him as a Tern would have for more normal players. It's all about how the disc reacts to arm speed. A lot of pro's will throw discs with -1 to -2 turn for long hyzers as well...they'll throw them on a very steep angle and the disc will pop up to close to flat while gliding out the hyzer way to the side...lets them get a lot of carry compared to an OS disc that will seek the ground on that angle.

The advantage of high arm speed is that within say 75% of their comfortable golf distance range, they can throw a pure hyzer with an OS disc. And 75% of their max D is farther than most normal players can hit on any line. So that's why it looks like they only throw OS, because they are able to.

 

[NickVK]

Thank you for the response especially about Ricky's enforcer as I was just having a conversation with a buddy about the pros super beat in discs practically act like a Understable disc, this post helps a lot greatly appreciate it cheers!

 

[NickVK]

Oh shoot another quick question is a Understable disc that starts to get beat in.Over time is that disc gonna get more Understable? Almost to the point where it's unplayable hence why most people prefer to beat in overstable discs?

 

[ru4por]

Thank you for the response especially about Ricky's enforcer as I was just having a conversation with a buddy about the pros super beat in discs practically act like a Understable disc, this post helps a lot greatly appreciate it cheers!

Oh shoot another quick question is a Understable disc that starts to get beat in.Over time is that disc gonna get more Understable? Almost to the point where it's unplayable hence why most people prefer to beat in overstable discs?

You may have missed an important point in the post below. Many pros have the ability to throw a disc much further than most of us. Wysocki's Enforcer does not likely flip flat (or over) because it is beat in. He is probably using a relatively new disc, but his arm speed/disc speed is greater than yours and mine. This added speed, takes away stability. His flight path with that disc was accurately compared to a Tern in my hand, by Slow.

A disc will lose stability as you use it....or beat it in. Base line plastics (opposed to premium) beat in much quicker and more severely, yes even to the point of unplayable. (except maybe for a roller) I don't believe most people prefer to beat in overstable discs. Some might love a beat in Mamba...a very understable disc out of the box. It is a preference and depends a lot on the type of plastic and arm speed.

 

[thirtydirtybirds]

I really don't think your going to beat something in to unusable unless it was very flippy to begin with. Especially since it is a disc you will have to throw a lot to get it extremely flippy. That said I have what many would probably consider a 3.5/10 aviar that is mega flippy, and I throw it all the time. I know what it does, I've thrown it a thousand times and am confident with it. I'm not throwing it in to a headwind, but I will throw it whenever I can. Super beat discs do really unique things that factory understable discs just can't do off the shelf.

 

[sidewinder22]

Technically all discs are understable, just varying degrees. Give the most overstable disc enough relative airspeed and it will act understable at high speed. Rough up or beat up the edges and it will act less stable at high speed, which is exaggerated by the sharpness of the nose, so high speed discs are more affected by beating in than putters and mids with more blunt nose shape.

I had a beat up Firebird that some tops pros even thought was a Roadrunner because it would flip, but it would still come back at the end as the relative airspeed decreases and comes out of drag crisis so it would still fade like Firebird.

 

[NickVK]

Technically all discs are understable, just varying degrees. Give the most overstable disc enough relative airspeed and it will act understable at high speed. Rough up or beat up the edges and it will act less stable at high speed, which is exaggerated by the sharpness of the nose, so high speed discs are more affected by beating in than putters and mids with more blunt nose shape.

I had a beat up Firebird that some tops pros even thought was a Roadrunner because it would flip, but it would still come back at the end as the relative airspeed decreases and comes out of drag crisis so it would still fade like Firebird.

That's an insane difference in distance with the exact same disc all based on wear. Makes me almost wanna go out with all my new discs and throw it at some trees over and over again haha

 

[TAFL]

That's an insane difference in distance with the exact same disc all based on wear. Makes me almost wanna go out with all my new discs and throw it at some trees over and over again haha

That's a pretty common thing to do, actually. In years past, when buying new discs, the first thing I'd do is toss them into a fence, step on them, slide them along a road surface, and so forth. I wanted the characteristics of a seasoned disc of that model, so I did some seasoning right out of the box so they'd fly like I wanted when in use.

These days, with the premium plastics, it takes so long to season a disc that the sweet spot for the models I throw is much closer to OOB, so I don't beat up new discs before throwing them.

 

[NickVK]

That's a pretty common thing to do, actually. In years past, when buying new discs, the first thing I'd do is toss them into a fence, step on them, slide them along a road surface, and so forth. I wanted the characteristics of a seasoned disc of that model, so I did some seasoning right out of the box so they'd fly like I wanted when in use.

These days, with the premium plastics, it takes so long to season a disc that the sweet spot for the models I throw is much closer to OOB, so I don't beat up new discs before throwing them.

Makes sense to why all my star plastics felt like meat hooks at first thanks for all the posts guys!

 

[slowplastic]

I find smooth concrete like at skate parks is the best way to smooth out a disc. Just slide it in circles on that stuff to smooth out the bottom edge. Also if you whack it like FH flick/hammer style into hard objects that helps dent the nose down a little. Got to knock the new disc fade out of some discs...I'd rather have it flying closer to how I want after 5 minutes than wait a few months to beat it in while hating it.

Generally I do find that discs that began moderately overstable and beat in to more neutral will resist wind better than discs that started life at that stability. I don't know why that is. But that's a reason I'd rather have a beat to straight disc, in general, than a more flippy off the shelf disc.

Also, even a more neutral disc that is fresh still tends to have a bit more of that new disc fade. Where a beat to similar stability disc may still wait until later to fade and give you a longer straighter carry.

 

[DiscJunkie]

Understable discs are less predictable and controllable compared to Overstable discs.
Ergo, a beat-in OS disc will stay controllable and comfortable longer.
Also, it is my experience that even a beat OS disc will be more likely to fade out (get stable) at the end of the flight as opposed to continuing to turn (which a naturally US disc would tend to do).

Edit: Didn't mean to repeat the above posts, just came back to the desk and finished my thoughts...

 

[ru4por]

I find smooth concrete like at skate parks is the best way to smooth out a disc. Just slide it in circles on that stuff to smooth out the bottom edge. Also if you whack it like FH flick/hammer style into hard objects that helps dent the nose down a little. Got to knock the new disc fade out of some discs...I'd rather have it flying closer to how I want after 5 minutes than wait a few months to beat it in while hating it.

Generally I do find that discs that began moderately overstable and beat in to more neutral will resist wind better than discs that started life at that stability. I don't know why that is. But that's a reason I'd rather have a beat to straight disc, in general, than a more flippy off the shelf disc.

Also, even a more neutral disc that is fresh still tends to have a bit more of that new disc fade. Where a beat to similar stability disc may still wait until later to fade and give you a longer straighter carry.

I don't prescribe to this belief. Since the OP is pretty wet behind the ears, I think it should be emphasized that this is not really science, just an opinion.

There are a couple different ways to look at disc purchasing. One certainly legit belief, is there are enough molds now in the world to pretty much find a flight path to match your arm out of the box.

Before I get shelled, I know that magic, 12 y/o, OOP T-Bird does what no other disc on earth can.

 

[slowplastic]

I don't prescribe to this belief. Since the OP is pretty wet behind the ears, I think it should be emphasized that this is not really science, just an opinion.

There are a couple different ways to look at disc purchasing. One certainly legit belief, is there are enough molds now in the world to pretty much find a flight path to match your arm out of the box.

Before I get shelled, I know that magic, 12 y/o, OOP T-Bird does what no other disc on earth can.

Yeah it's from my experience...but definitely if I lose a beat Destroyer I'm not going to pay big money for another beat one or worry about the cycle...I'll replace it with something neutral like that off the shelf. If I lose a beat Teebird it'll get replaced with an FD, etc.

There's so many options out there that you can find anything to fly right when new, but beat in discs that you trust are the best.

As a new player there's no reason to worry about those subtleties, but keep throwing your beat in discs to learn how they change.

 

[UhhNegative]

Part of the reason people like beat discs so much is that simply you just have more throws with that disc once it gets to that stage. More experience = more confidence in what it will do = better shots. But I think there probably is something about the difference in LSS between a more neutral disc out of the box vs a more OS disc that has been beat in.

 

[thirtydirtybirds]

^ this. I think having a ton of experience with a particular disc over its life cycle gives you familiarity with that mold. You may beat, say a teebird from being straight to fade in to just plain straight. Then add in a fresh teebird, you already know how it will fly, you have throw a teebird a thousand times, no learning curve needed.

The downside is losing your beat teebird, before you have a backup beat in.

 

[VLaForce2002]

Because of similar discussions in other threads I have taken to buying four or five copies of the same favorite driver molds in the same 5 gram range of weight. So far, it has served three purposes:
1) Field Work is more productive
2) I can manage the wear cycle of the discs
3) there are stability differences that have escaped my ability to measure with calipers, but are absolutely consistently observed throwing. When I had only one of a disc and the replacement was even a little different, it made me crazy with grief for the old disc. Now there is a buffer in the system and even if I lose my green sparkle Vanish, the red core/white rim will fill in as an OK replacement as I continue to search for the green sparkle's true heir

 

[thirtydirtybirds]

So not to turn this into yet another cycling discussion, even though it is the true way, back to the OP.

You will probably find stability to be relative. Discs some bigger arms find understable may not be that way for you. And just because a disc is understable doesn't mean it won't fade out at the end.

You probably aren't going to hyzer flip an overstable disc unless you are throwing either really far or with bad form. And in the long run it is definitely a good thing to learn understable discs, maybe even more so than learning overstable ones. Understable discs can still be worked on a hyzer line (generally) and can get further right (for you and other lefties) than an overstable one. Hyzerflip to straight is a different line BH than a stable disc thrown straight FH, and a turnover BH is a different line than an OS disc FH.

Learn it all, backhand and forehand. Sometimes you need the BH turnover, sometimes the hard hyzer forehand. It will make you a more complete player.

Also putt a lot.

 

[NickVK]

So not to turn this into yet another cycling discussion, even though it is the true way, back to the OP.

You will probably find stability to be relative. Discs some bigger arms find understable may not be that way for you. And just because a disc is understable doesn't mean it won't fade out at the end.

You probably aren't going to hyzer flip an overstable disc unless you are throwing either really far or with bad form. And in the long run it is definitely a good thing to learn understable discs, maybe even more so than learning overstable ones. Understable discs can still be worked on a hyzer line (generally) and can get further right (for you and other lefties) than an overstable one. Hyzerflip to straight is a different line BH than a stable disc thrown straight FH, and a turnover BH is a different line than an OS disc FH.

Learn it all, backhand and forehand. Sometimes you need the BH turnover, sometimes the hard hyzer forehand. It will make you a more complete player.

Also putt a lot.

I like all this advice thank you! my only issue is that I'm a lefty back hand with a righty flick so really I have no advantage haha so I use my back hand basically 100% of the time.

 

[slowplastic]

I like all this advice thank you! my only issue is that I'm a lefty back hand with a righty flick so really I have no advantage haha so I use my back hand basically 100% of the time.

That is unfortunate. But you'll still use the FH in situations where you are in trouble. Like getting out from under a tree where you have to take a knee, the FH is easier. Same with reaching out around a bush/tree. As well if you need to get a trick shot roller down quick the FH roller is much simpler. It also may be easier for you to shape low flex/anhyzer lines FH than BH.