No 10 Meter Circle

[Kodachrome]

I get what you're saying but you're talking about bad putters. I'm talking about good ones. If someone is 90% from 25 feet and allowing him to step through makes him 95% (because he's a spin putter) that's gaining an advantage, when, in effect another guy with the other style allowing him to step through isn't improving his percentage increase at all (Still at 90%) because allowing a step through to a straddle putt/loft-putter doesn't change the distance and consequently not the accuracy.

And before anyone criticizes the distances I chose for the example, you pick the ones that are true for you and apply the same principles. I still think allowing the step-through is clearly an advantage to good spin putters compared to good push putters particularly those that straddle.

i guess what i was getting at is the idea that the good putters will still be good putters and the bad ones will be bad . . . so let the people hash out what they want to do - if they feel they are at a disadvantage, they will switch and work on it. at that point it's just a technique or tactic, like throwing RHFH or RHBH or being able to throw rollers.

if a person is 95% at 25 feet from a straddle, what would they stand to gain from a step putt? maybe it does increase their percentage: great! they're better at putting now. player B then needs to either step up the way they play their game or give in and switch. that's the nature of the beast, just like off the tee.

not to mention the fact there are tons of situations where a step putt is not feasible.

i know where you're coming from because i don't particularly care for the step putt/ jump putt period - i actually dislike it partially for that reason, but mostly for the "iffy" calls it can make for - but as long as everyone is on the same playing field it's cool. i could choose to step putt outside of 30' but i don't. it's the same principle, just at 30' instead of where ever i want. i'm confident that i can up my game through practice to match.

i would honestly prefer all putts to require remaining behind your lie - but then you have to define "what is a putt?" which brings us back to distance because you can't define it by stance or disc selection. so as for the OP i say "why not?" i think both would be fun to try.


i agree with you in some respect because i think you would see a lot of players trying to step putt and it would cut down on diversity as well as "shortening" the length of putts. but the good/great putters i think would probably just go with what made them more putts - some people would benefit from the step putt and some would stay with what made them great, IMO.

the 10m rule is fair in my book but i think this would be fun just to see what happens. of course that is a terrible reason to change a rule. i won't deny that.

 

[Harrishabitat]

I get what you're saying but you're talking about bad putters. I'm talking about good ones. If someone is 90% from 25 feet and allowing him to step through makes him 95% (because he's a spin putter) that's gaining an advantage, when, in effect another guy with the other style allowing him to step through isn't improving his percentage increase at all (Still at 90%) because allowing a step through to a straddle putt/loft-putter doesn't change the distance and consequently not the accuracy.

And before anyone criticizes the distances I chose for the example, you pick the ones that are true for you and apply the same principles. I still think allowing the step-through is clearly an advantage to good spin putters compared to good push putters particularly those that straddle.

This is just a false premise. First of all you can't say someone is going to be automatically better because they can step through, I maintain that most people wouldn't change their putting styles because of this. I also maintain you would not see a rash in people jump putting or step putting inside the circle, especially these top pros. The Top players aren't going to change and the people that aren't that good aren't really going to gain an advantage.

But in your example, straddle putters won't gain the same advantage, I also completely disagree. If a normal stance putter is gaining all this advantage by simple forward momentum, why wouldn't a straddle putter gain the same by falling forward? Yes they aren't stepping or jumping forward, but they can still fall forward. And to prove that, look at people that straddle putt from outside the circle now, they fall forward past their lie to gain extra forward momentum.

So in my opinion, everyone would gain the same perceived advantage, which means no advantage, and even more so, I really don't think many people would even do it anyways.

 

[araytx]

This is just a false premise. First of all you can't say someone is going to be automatically better because they can step through, I maintain that most people wouldn't change their putting styles because of this. I also maintain you would not see a rash in people jump putting or step putting inside the circle, especially these top pros. The Top players aren't going to change and the people that aren't that good aren't really going to gain an advantage.

But in your example, straddle putters won't gain the same advantage, I also completely disagree. If a normal stance putter is gaining all this advantage by simple forward momentum, why wouldn't a straddle putter gain the same by falling forward? Yes they aren't stepping or jumping forward, but they can still fall forward. And to prove that, look at people that straddle putt from outside the circle now, they fall forward past their lie to gain extra forward momentum.

So in my opinion, everyone would gain the same perceived advantage, which means no advantage, and even more so, I really don't think many people would even do it anyways.

Granted, we were both "postulating." Mine was that the distance of the putt gave one style an advantage (in accuracy). The advantage gained is via the shortening of the distance, thereby increasing accuracy. I mean does anybody on here think you're just as accurate on 15-footers and 20-footers alike... and so on??? If the advantage were the same either way, then why would a push putter like Feldberg (albeit a staggered-stance push putter), switch to spin putting with a step through when way outside the circle? Why wouldn't Feldy stay with the push putt and step through? Answer: The release point is closer to the basket (4-5 feet) that the simple act of shortening the distance makes it more accurate. Examine this video for yourself. At 0:02 is his normal release point for a push putt. When he decides to spin it, it's abundantly obvious that he's much closer to the basket on the release (0:30). We may think people won't do it once the circle is removed... but to some degree, they are already doing it.

 

[Harrishabitat]

Granted, we were both "postulating." Mine was that the distance of the putt gave one style an advantage (in accuracy). The advantage gained is via the shortening of the distance, thereby increasing accuracy. I mean does anybody on here think you're just as accurate on 15-footers and 20-footers alike... and so on??? If the advantage were the same either way, then why would a push putter like Feldberg (albeit a staggered-stance push putter), switch to spin putting with a step through when way outside the circle? Why wouldn't Feldy stay with the push putt and step through? Answer: The release point is closer to the basket (4-5 feet) that the simple act of shortening the distance makes it more accurate. Examine this video for yourself. At 0:02 is his normal release point for a push putt. When he decides to spin it, it's abundantly obvious that he's much closer to the basket on the release (0:30). We may think people won't do it once the circle is removed... but to some degree, they are already doing it.

Not trying to be a turd, but going to completely disagree with your premise again. First of all saying it's 4-5 feet is over estimating, I would say you are at best 2-3 feet at best..but regardless of that, any advantage you are gaining by reducing the distance to the basket, you are increasing your odds of missing because of all of the addition body parts moving. A stable stance, IMO, is the best putting form. Just like in most other sports, the more parts of your body you have moving, the greater chance of error because you have increased the factors of the action.

The reason people step/jump putt from greater distances isn't to reduce the distance to the basket, it's to impart more momentum on the disc to allow it to reach the basket.

 

[livextreme9]

A stable stance, IMO, is the best putting form. Just like in most other sports, the more parts of your body you have moving, the greater chance of error because you have increased the factors of the action.

The reason people step/jump putt from greater distances isn't to reduce the distance to the basket, it's to impart more momentum on the disc to allow it to reach the basket.

I agree with this. I find that I am more inconsistent when jump/step putting do to more moving parts. Not saying that I am a good putter when standing still either. :wall:

 

[andrewv]

Didn't read the entire thread so apologies if this has been covered: the 10m rule prevents Carl Lewis/Michael Jordan types making a running slam dunk into the basket. Which I perceive as a good thing.

 

[mashnut]

Didn't read the entire thread so apologies if this has been covered: the 10m rule prevents Carl Lewis/Michael Jordan types making a running slam dunk into the basket. Which I perceive as a good thing.

Not really. Outside the circle currently you have to have a supporting point on the ground when you release the disc. Just getting rid of the circle wouldn't change that to suddenly allow slam dunks or jump shots from behind bushes.

 

[andrewv]

Thanks for that reminder. So back to eliminating tall people face-planting....

 

[teemkey]

Not really. Outside the circle currently you have to have a supporting point on the ground when you release the disc. Just getting rid of the circle wouldn't change that to suddenly allow slam dunks or jump shots from behind bushes.

Not really, depends on the course.

Note: might mean some nasty ... cause, you know, there's a price to be paid.

 

[armiller]

Dangerous bump. This was an interesting thread. I found it cuz I couldn't figure out where to ask this:

Why not increase circle size to 15 or even 20 meters? The only problem I could see is those basket locations close to bushes or other obstacles. Then we could give TDs the option to draw a custom line if it seemed necessary.

 

[swatso]

As with most things in life, consider the gain/pain ratio.

Gain: How much advantage do falling putters gain? If lots, everyone can do it. If minimal/variable, who cares? Do what works best for you.
Pain: The angst/arguments that happen when falling putts are, or are not, called. I have a similar opinion about ill-marked out-of-bounds - rather have none of it/play it where it lies, as opposed to some of the arguments I've observed/been part of regarding if oob, and if so, when last in bounds.

Eliminate the circle - let players gyrate however the want before, during, and after their throw.
P.S. And minimize oob - and if you have it, have it clearly marked.

 

[JC17393]

Dangerous bump. This was an interesting thread. I found it cuz I couldn't figure out where to ask this:

Why not increase circle size to 15 or even 20 meters? The only problem I could see is those basket locations close to bushes or other obstacles. Then we could give TDs the option to draw a custom line if it seemed necessary.

I think the biggest problem with expanding the circle is measuring it. Right now, the circle can be paced out rather quickly and is not all that difficult to eyeball either. The greater the distance though, the harder doing both of those things accurately becomes.

I could get behind drawing a custom line, though. But I think there'd need to be some sort of limit...like a minimum and maximum area that the green encompasses. Essentially so you don't get TDs/designers creating 1 meter circles or 100 meter circles.

I think different shapes should be allowed too. A 10-meter circle is roughly 3200 square feet in area. Why not allow a square or a rectangle or some oddly shaped polygon so long as its total area is still 3200 square feet? The basket wouldn't have to be centered in it either. Imagine a rectangle 25 feet wide and 130 feet long with the basket at the farther end of the rectangle from the tee. There'd be opportunity to legally jump putt from 20 feet if you land pin high and to the side but not if you land dead in the middle but 100 feet short. Could make some holes more interesting.

 

[armiller]

My thinking is simple. I'm a very average putter, but 15 meters is not so long that I need to use a different motion to generate enough power for an controlled putt. So why let people do some fancy jump or step at 33'?

Maybe part of the reason I like keeping the circle (and the current putting regulations) is the free throw analogy, which several folks mentioned back in the 2014 part of the thread. Yes you can jump shooting a free throw, but you have to land behind the line (unlike a three pointer). Call me old fashioned, but I like requiring that extra degree of control for a putt.

 

[Countchunkula]

I see your necro-bump and raise you a necro-quote.

I'm lobbying the RC and Competition Committee that if a circle is marked, that it is the official line regardless if a player takes out a tape measure to check it. Also, that the circle doesn't have to be circular but could range from 7m to 15m to not only provide shape to our "greens" but to accommodate trees and terrain issues making it difficult to mark at precisely 10m. However, if no marking then 10m circle remains the default.

Chuck, what ever happened with this proposal? The idea of the non-circular circle is intriguing.

 

[Cgkdisc]

I see your necro-bump and raise you a necro-quote.
Chuck, what ever happened with this proposal? The idea of the non-circular circle is intriguing.

It's still percolating but there are a few other priorities for PDGA Admin to address before I see making a push again.

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

I'm in favour of simpler rules but am not into people doing falling putts into the basket, next thing you know everyone starts slam dunking and hurting themselves haha.

As far as an odd shaped circle I don't think PDGA events need that kind of weirdness but Ive done the odd shaped O.B. and reverse O.B. before for league... Do an OB ring around the pin, make it tight to the front and long behind the pin so an intentional layup is more safe then going for it.

 

[CaptainAnhyzer]

Make the circle 20 meters

 

[mosman253]

I feel like one rule change/addition would make a world of difference in all of these aspects of foot faults and falling putts. The supporting point of contact must remain on and in the lie for entirity of the throw until the disc comes to rest. Excluding the tee.

this would effect the wild leaping putts that I believe to be illegal. forget the 10m circle junk. And add a level of control from the fairways that would make fairplay identifiable and a non issue. May also curb the the tiger proofing trend that is creeping into dg. I beliive this would affect the already exisisting player base very little. And make a more clear and inviting format for new players and the future of the game. Alot of tournament golfers already have this it would just mean standing still for a few more seconds.

Mosman for change 2018!

 

[krupicka]

I feel like one rule change/addition would make a world of difference in all of these aspects of foot faults and falling putts. The supporting point of contact must remain on and in the lie for entirity of the throw until the disc comes to rest. Excluding the tee.

this would effect the wild leaping putts that I believe to be illegal. forget the 10m circle junk. And add a level of control from the fairways that would make fairplay identifiable and a non issue. May also curb the the tiger proofing trend that is creeping into dg. I beliive this would affect the already exisisting player base very little. And make a more clear and inviting format for new players and the future of the game. Alot of tournament golfers already have this it would just mean standing still for a few more seconds.

Mosman for change 2018!

Problems occur on holes where the landing zone of the disc is not visible from the tee, in cases where one needs to avoid getting hit by your own throw to avoid an interference penalty, where a player wants to step to the side to see where a disc lands, etc.

 

[sidewinder22]

Problems occur on holes where the landing zone of the disc is not visible from the tee, in cases where one needs to avoid getting hit by your own throw to avoid an interference penalty, where a player wants to step to the side to see where a disc lands, etc.

I thought it's not interference if you remain still.

I agree with the blind landing zone issue, being able to see your disc land.

My main issue with it would be safety/allowing follow through especially on uneven or sloped surfaces where there is almost no way to remain still after release.