Now that's a pro call-out

[KaBooM]

(1) Lack of demand for it, other than from a handful of folks on the internet.

(2) Pretty significant manpower commitment---on top of everything else involved in running an A-tier---especially if you're talking about enough marshals to truly officiate a tournament.

(3) Unless you have a surplus of very committed locals who will spend the entire weekend marshaling instead of playing or doing anything else, you're going to have to pay them. And any reasonable pay, for a staff of marshals for, say, 16 hours of tournament play, is going to add up to a lot.

(4) There are better things to do with that time, and money (if it comes to that).

(5) Discouraging people from wanting to run A-tiers, with such a mandate.

*

Again, TDs are free to do this, at A-tiers or anywhere else, if they think it's worthwhile. The PDGA's not stopping anyone.

+1 Agree on all counts. Some day when there are more resouces available to the top tournaments? Perhaps.

 

[Three Putt]

The only thing I'll say is you've given up. As long as you don't get in our way or minimize our efforts then we who strive don't have a problem with you who are content with the status quo.

Now, to be fair, I didn't read what you're responding to, so I don't know if I agree with the other poster or not...it's just a general philosophy. I disagree with you and think you're wrong (and I have facts to prove it, just ones I can't divulge due to business interests), however talk is cheap. Feel free to relax and let us progressive thinkers take it from here

No one who knows me and knows about the local and youth disc golf programs I organize would say I've given up on disc golf. So far as the status quo goes, in disc golf the status quo has always been the people with their fingers crossed saying professional disc golf will work if we just keep beating this dead horse. I am in no way advocating the status quo, I'm saying the status quo is never going to work and is a waste of time.

So far is being in your way, the PDGA mindset is in my way. Way back in the 90's I proposed to the PDGA that we start a committee of people inside the parks and recreation profession and work to promote disc golf as a recreational activity within the mainstream parks and recreation industry. I got the usual "we have something big in the works" answer and was told the PDGA wasn't interested in promoting disc golf as a recreational activity. That put me on the outside; I do my thing entirely separate from you.

As I do my thing, the expectation from players is that I am going to provide events with unsustainable payouts over 100% of what they pay in. They expect that because that is what the PDGA has done for years; bribe people to play disc golf with inflated payouts. When I organize a sustainable series of disc golf events, they say I'm "ripping them off." You have to have a sponsor pumping money into events at every level, even the very lowest recreational level, to avoid being accused of ripping people off. That entitled attitude by the players toward what should be a recreational activity ties my hands.

 

[araytx]

I will also add is it fair that the top card gets the camera man and the gallery?

depends. do you think that's an advantage or disadvantage to the players?

 

[Thumber]

No one who knows me and knows about the local and youth disc golf programs I organize would say I've given up on disc golf. So far as the status quo goes, in disc golf the status quo has always been the people with their fingers crossed saying professional disc golf will work if we just keep beating this dead horse. I am in no way advocating the status quo, I'm saying the status quo is never going to work and is a waste of time.

So far is being in your way, the PDGA mindset is in my way. Way back in the 90's I proposed to the PDGA that we start a committee of people inside the parks and recreation profession and work to promote disc golf as a recreational activity within the mainstream parks and recreation industry. I got the usual "we have something big in the works" answer and was told the PDGA wasn't interested in promoting disc golf as a recreational activity. That put me on the outside; I do my thing entirely separate from you.

As I do my thing, the expectation from players is that I am going to provide events with unsustainable payouts over 100% of what they pay in. They expect that because that is what the PDGA has done for years; bribe people to play disc golf with inflated payouts. When I organize a sustainable series of disc golf events, they say I'm "ripping them off." You have to have a sponsor pumping money into events at every level, even the very lowest recreational level, to avoid being accused of ripping people off. That entitled attitude by the players toward what should be a recreational activity ties my hands.

I completely agree with much of this post. Especially the unreasonable payout expectations.

 

[sidewinder22]

As long as people buy it, it's worth selling.

It needs to be profitable to be worth selling.

 

[Royal Hill]

(Threeputt) "So far is being in your way, the PDGA mindset is in my way. Way back in the 90's I proposed to the PDGA that we start a committee of people inside the parks and recreation profession and work to promote disc golf as a recreational activity within the mainstream parks and recreation industry. I got the usual "we have something big in the works" answer and was told the PDGA wasn't interested in promoting disc golf as a recreational activity. That put me on the outside; I do my thing entirely separate from you."

During this years DGPTVs USDGC broadcast, there was a brief interview with Brian Graham of the PDGA. I was pleased with much of what was said. Part of the discussion involved the changing dynamics in our sports favor at Parks/recreation convention/vendor fairs that the pdga has been attending. It spoke to a notable difference in how many agencies were previously still unaware of our sport, yet recent times was essentially mentioned to having many of these agencies or groups actively seeking out the PDGA at these conventions to talk about disc golf and how they can get involved.

May be a difference from 90s to 2013.

(However, I do think that many on forums like these think of the PDGA as being a bigger agency in manpower than it is.)

 

[Slider]

Many of those very same pros also partake in that culture, and often without apology.


Why you athlete worshipers on here keep touting such insipid crap, I'll never know. Aside from some mild entertainment value, pro athletes have little use value to society. They don't teach schoolkids algebra. They don't keep your streets safe from thugs. They don't sift though disaster rubble for survivors. They don't put out your fires. They don't fight your wars. They throw, kick or dribble a ball or some related artifact around. Whatever power they have is only there because you've bequeathed it to them.

Paul McBeth, Tiger Woods, Peyton Manning and Alex Rodriguez all are arguably amongst the best at their particular sport. They have something in common. The market determines how much money each of them makes for a living. None of them make whatever they do because "they deserved it".

Insipid crap...really? Call me a believer...call me stupid optimistic, hopelessly naive...but insipid crap? Name calling is for the small minded wouldn't you think. I am an adult...I can shi on him.

This sport is growing fast...there are courses popping up all over, eventually this sport is going to change and you being the old poor guy that is firmly stuck in his old ways...can suck it....really...insipid crap. grow up

 

[biscoe]

the game is growing by leaps and bounds... the sport not so much.

your optimism is fed to a large degree by a decided lack of perspective.

 

[jeverett]

I agree that more sponsorship money is required for touring pros to make at least enough to stay on the tour. The player base cannot be the source of income. A small supplement perhaps, but not the major source.

Thumber, you're neglecting to mention here what the incentive for sponsorship is. Why does anyone sponsor anything? Return on investment. Yes, when you sponsor something, just like any other form of advertising, you do it with the intent of (eventually) recouping *more* than you spent on the sponsorship, in the form of boosted sales.

This means that, ultimately, ALL income going to touring pros comes from the players themselves (as well as the entire sport, including everyone who spends money on said sport).

For all those wanting to see disc golf 'make it big', I encourage you to consider your own disc golf expenditures. How much money are you, personally, spending on disc golf each year? This includes everything you do that's disc golf-related, from discs, shoes, clothing, tourney expenses, club/course memberships, travel expenses, heck, maybe even beer. If a sponsor is going to spend money on advertising these things to you, they of course expect to get a return on their investment in a reasonable time frame. i.e. They do it with the expectation that the group advertised to will ultimately spend *more* money on their products.

In short, growing disc golf ultimately means all of us, as participants in disc golf, spending more money on our sport.

 

[Three Putt]

(Threeputt) "So far is being in your way, the PDGA mindset is in my way. Way back in the 90's I proposed to the PDGA that we start a committee of people inside the parks and recreation profession and work to promote disc golf as a recreational activity within the mainstream parks and recreation industry. I got the usual "we have something big in the works" answer and was told the PDGA wasn't interested in promoting disc golf as a recreational activity. That put me on the outside; I do my thing entirely separate from you."

During this years DGPTVs USDGC broadcast, there was a brief interview with Brian Graham of the PDGA. I was pleased with much of what was said. Part of the discussion involved the changing dynamics in our sports favor at Parks/recreation convention/vendor fairs that the pdga has been attending. It spoke to a notable difference in how many agencies were previously still unaware of our sport, yet recent times was essentially mentioned to having many of these agencies or groups actively seeking out the PDGA at these conventions to talk about disc golf and how they can get involved.

May be a difference from 90s to 2013.

(However, I do think that many on forums like these think of the PDGA as being a bigger agency in manpower than it is.)

Nah, the PDGA was always at the NRPA conference. They are still sitting there waiting for the P & R departments to come to them. I was talking about being proactive and using disc golfers already inside the profession to promote and educate others in the field about disc golf. There is a big difference between having CEU sessions lead by P & R professionals devoted to disc golf course design, programming, etc., and having a bunch of Frisbee dudes sitting in a booth in the exhibit hall.

The PDGA as an organization was even smaller then than it is now, but I really wasn't asking him to do anything. I was offering to do something for him. He didn't want what I was offering to try to do to happen.

What I was told off the record by a BoD member was that the PDGA did not want P & R departments running local events because those events would compete with PDGA events for recreational players. They were willing to forgo the exposure that having disc golf plugged into the mainstream P & R programming would bring to try to hold on to a monopoly on events.

 

[Lewis]

If the pro disc golfers aren't making any money by competing in tournaments, perhaps they should start selling something that the rest of us will be more willing to buy.

 

[Stardoggy]

If the pro disc golfers aren't making any money by competing in tournaments, perhaps they should start selling something that the rest of us will be more willing to buy.

Circular reference.

 

[New013]

well considering the PDGA is going to do away with Am payouts that might help your cause 3P. a mainstream professional tour is so far away it's silly for anyone to even think it's possible within the next 20 years. all of the people on the inside saying it will happen are just way to close to it to really see it.

 

[mashnut]

well considering the PDGA is going to do away with Am payouts that might help your cause 3P. a mainstream professional tour is so far away it's silly for anyone to even think it's possible within the next 20 years. all of the people on the inside saying it will happen are just way to close to it to really see it.

I don't know that I've seen any real talk about the PDGA eliminating payouts at all events, just that they're doing it at some of the bigger events.

 

[DG_Before_Breakfast]

Thumber, you're neglecting to mention here what the incentive for sponsorship is. Why does anyone sponsor anything? Return on investment. Yes, when you sponsor something, just like any other form of advertising, you do it with the intent of (eventually) recouping *more* than you spent on the sponsorship, in the form of boosted sales.

This means that, ultimately, ALL income going to touring pros comes from the players themselves (as well as the entire sport, including everyone who spends money on said sport).

For all those wanting to see disc golf 'make it big', I encourage you to consider your own disc golf expenditures. How much money are you, personally, spending on disc golf each year? This includes everything you do that's disc golf-related, from discs, shoes, clothing, tourney expenses, club/course memberships, travel expenses, heck, maybe even beer. If a sponsor is going to spend money on advertising these things to you, they of course expect to get a return on their investment in a reasonable time frame. i.e. They do it with the expectation that the group advertised to will ultimately spend *more* money on their products.

In short, growing disc golf ultimately means all of us, as participants in disc golf, spending more money on our sport.

Agree, and that will be the hard part for most of the DGers I know to swallow. There is a reason Ball Golf is a rich mainstream sport - the players have a lot of money and spend it. There very much is a "club", mainly of rich white people, and they are willing to pay to keep it that way. Oh, there are public courses that the rest of us (who are still pretty well off by international standards) can play, but the foundation is built on skimming the high end, kind of like the iPhone market.

Meanwhile, DGers sweat the entrance fee to their local clubs monthly and the quality of every prize pack. The high end to skim here is middle class at best. But that is the way it will always be, because that is the culture of this sport, and really one of the main reasons most of the folks I know can afford to play it.

How can we move DG to the mainstream without making it unaffordable to the masses that play it now? One thought is there needs to be pay to play courses that are well maintained, that make real money for the DG high end to start leveraging their middle class buying power towards, and hopefully will feed back into the unpaid courses in some sort of trickle down effect (which we now know doesn't work for economics, but sometimes does for giving back to the community).

In my Lottery winner dreams, I buy a big chunk of Fort Ord, next to the DG course at CSUMB, and have a a paid DG course there next to the current free ones. With a stadium like layout that supports watching rounds and filming them, scheduled rounds so your money is guaranteed to get you a good round, restaurant, shops, DG practice areas, etc., ala ball golf today. The free option is still there. But these are just hopeful dreams of the poor DGer at this point.

 

[Thumber]

Thumber, you're neglecting to mention here what the incentive for sponsorship is. Why does anyone sponsor anything? Return on investment. Yes, when you sponsor something, just like any other form of advertising, you do it with the intent of (eventually) recouping *more* than you spent on the sponsorship, in the form of boosted sales.

This means that, ultimately, ALL income going to touring pros comes from the players themselves (as well as the entire sport, including everyone who spends money on said sport).

For all those wanting to see disc golf 'make it big', I encourage you to consider your own disc golf expenditures. How much money are you, personally, spending on disc golf each year? This includes everything you do that's disc golf-related, from discs, shoes, clothing, tourney expenses, club/course memberships, travel expenses, heck, maybe even beer. If a sponsor is going to spend money on advertising these things to you, they of course expect to get a return on their investment in a reasonable time frame. i.e. They do it with the expectation that the group advertised to will ultimately spend *more* money on their products.

In short, growing disc golf ultimately means all of us, as participants in disc golf, spending more money on our sport.

Not neglecting it, just thought that sort of marketing 101 was obvious

Personally i already spend enough on DG each year (too much if you ask my wife)

That said, I don't see any need for a high paying pro tour that supports multiple players. I am not in my 20s and have no aspiration to take my game on the road. For me its a hobby / sport that I greatly enjoy. There are so many events and opportunities to play competitively locally and regionally. I don't need the sport to grow.

I just get tired of this contention that disc golf is about to explode into the main stream. Its not. And if it did, it will likely alienate many of the dedicated volunteers that brought it to where we are today, an exciting little fringe sport we play because we like the "throw stuff at other stuff" type of games and watching frisbees fly.

 

[Thumber]

What would happen if the pro tour folded due to being unsustainable for the players?

Very little would change for all but the very elite of the sport. They would have to get jobs just like the rest of us.

Oh, and maybe the disc manufacturers would have to slow down with releasing new types of discs every year

 

[Stardoggy]

What would happen if the pro tour folded due to being unsustainable for the players?

Very little would change for all but the very elite of the sport. They would have to get jobs just like the rest of us.

Oh, and maybe the disc manufacturers would have to slow down with releasing new types of discs every year

But they still haven't come up with the Longer Teebird...say it ain't so.

 

[mashnut]

What would happen if the pro tour folded due to being unsustainable for the players?

Very little would change for all but the very elite of the sport. They would have to get jobs just like the rest of us.

Oh, and maybe the disc manufacturers would have to slow down with releasing new types of discs every year

I doubt it would affect the manufacturers at all. The pros don't buy any appreciable fraction of the discs produced, noobs are the lion's share of the market. Even if the "pro tour" collapsed, you'd still have all the weekend C tiers we do now (or unsanctioned replacements for them if you're implying the whole PDGA folding), and with the am payout model that moves a ton of discs.

 

[Thumber]

I doubt it would affect the manufacturers at all. The pros don't buy any appreciable fraction of the discs produced, noobs are the lion's share of the market. Even if the "pro tour" collapsed, you'd still have all the weekend C tiers we do now (or unsanctioned replacements for them if you're implying the whole PDGA folding), and with the am payout model that moves a ton of discs.

My main point is I don't believe the vast majority of DGrs have any interest in taking the sport mainstream. That dream is shared only among the elite of the sport with a vested interest in more money pouring into the game

I agree with you regarding the manufacturers