PAR

[villup]

Playing everything par 3 makes it easy to keep score. Regardless of what the par is, at the end of the round you still have the same score. In the end, what really matters is your number score ,not how many strokes over or under par you were. Par 3 is the standard. When I hear someone say they were 5 under par for their round, or whatever, I assume they are using the par 3 method of scoring. Its also an easy way to see how your game compares with other peoples games.

 

[Cgkdisc]

I played in a pdga tourney today on a course with several holes originally marked as a par 4-5 but the TD made every hole a par 3. Every hole is par 3 always. I have never, and would never play with people using a par that is anything other than 3.

Michigan has typically been behind the times on course design for many years with using par values higher than 3 being part of that other than the other Terry C, Terry Calhoun who is a member of the DGCD and a few other exceptions like when the PDGA Worlds team came in to help get pars set properly a few times.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Not intending to rip on Michigan but it's been frustrating getting those who could be leaders in advancing course designs in MI to participate in the larger dialog among designers going on around the world. Those of us outside MI can see the difference when we visit there compared with what is happening with design advances in other hopping disc golf areas. Top-rated Flip City is a good example where it looks like it's a traditional par 3 layout based on its tourney SSA values, not even close to the Championship courses with true par 4s & 5s in other DG areas (Idlewild, Highbridge, Renny, Nocky, WR Jackson and now many others). So it's not surprising that many Michigan players would think that par 3 is the only type of disc golf hole.

 

[Terry C]

Not intending to rip on Michigan but it's been frustrating getting those who could be leaders in advancing course designs in MI to participate in the larger dialog among designers going on around the world. Those of us outside MI can see the difference when we visit there compared with what is happening with design advances in other hopping disc golf areas. Top-rated Flip City is a good example where it looks like it's a traditional par 3 layout based on its tourney SSA values, not even close to the Championship courses with true par 4s & 5s in other DG areas (Idlewild, Highbridge, Renny, Nocky, WR Jackson and now many others). So it's not surprising that many Michigan players would think that par 3 is the only type of disc golf hole.

I have seen some terrible course designs around here so I understand what your saying. The course I played the tourney at today had fairways crossing each other and had us throwing over the road being used by cars and over a field being used by kids. A couple of the baskets are literally five feet from parking lots full of cars when they have an empty field with much better places they could have put them. Its a pretty bad design and its not like they dont have room to work with, some holes are 600-700 feet, they are just laid out poorly. Even by reducing the pars all to par 3 there were pro's ending up like 10 under. Playing the actual pars marked on the tees and they would have been like 20 under and thats just silly.

I have only played courses in Michigan (25 or so) so I get your point. I need a good disc golf road trip to experience some of these other courses out there. Its just that every hole at every course I have ever played has been played as par 3 by everybody I have ever played with so its hard for me to get away from that par 3 mentality I guess.

 

[Dave242]

Ive played courses with 1000 foot holes that are marked as par 4-5. I like the challenge but I will stick to playing it as a par 3. If my buddy asked me what my score was for that course, and I said "I was only 3 over!!" and he asked "but you were playing par 3 right?" I would then have to say "no, but it was a hard course" or something lame like that. I have had people tell me they had such and such a score and then went on to tell me they play all par 5's or whatever and I think those people are goofy. Those are the "frolfer" people.

There is no problem at all if you want to keep track of your score on every hole with 3 as the standard. BUT......that is not the definition of par.

From the USGA (since I found it most quickly in a search):
"Par" is the score that an expert player would be expected to make for a given hole. Par means expert play under ordinary weather conditions, allowing two strokes on the putting green.

So, to the world your definition makes no sense.....at least on courses where there are holes that an expert would not be expected to make a 3 on. If anything, you are sounding like a frolfer person.

 

[Dave242]

Even by reducing the pars all to par 3 there were pro's ending up like 10 under. Playing the actual pars marked on the tees and they would have been like 20 under and thats just silly.

The thing is, the par on the signs is often/usually for recreational players. Of course Pro's will tear up scores versus par when comparing Pro's to recreational players. It is analogous to PGA pros playing from the ladies tees on the courses they play.

 

[Terry C]

There is no problem at all if you want to keep track of your score on every hole with 3 as the standard. BUT......that is not the definition of par.

From the USGA (since I found it most quickly in a search):
"Par" is the score that an expert player would be expected to make for a given hole. Par means expert play under ordinary weather conditions, allowing two strokes on the putting green.

So, to the world your definition makes no sense.....at least on courses where there are holes that an expert would not be expected to make a 3 on. If anything, you are sounding like a frolfer person.

Am I wrong or cant Jenkens, Climo, Doss and those "expert level" players get a 3 on a 1000 foot hole rather easily? IMO there should never be any hole longer than 1000 feet anyway. Thats a rediculous distance to throw a disc even if your a pro. And if you agree with me on that then there would never be anything other then 3 for par on any hole.

I understand your logic but then for a hole to be par 4 the hole would be like 1500 feet, a par 5 would be like 2000 feet, a par 6 would be like 2500 feet and I have never seen a disc golf hole that long and I dont think I would even enjoy playing it. It would be like throwing a driver from my porch to the disc golf course a mile down the road.

 

[RussMB]

Now on my home courses, I'll do par 3 only. Everywhere else I play, unless it's not posted, I'll play the par listed. If it's not, I'll play par 3. I keep a mini clipboard in my bag, and a notebook. If I have a printer available, I'll come here to the DGCR and print off the scorecard and map from the course page. ...cause thats just how I roll!

 

[Terry C]

From the USGA (since I found it most quickly in a search):
"Par" is the score that an expert player would be expected to make for a given hole. Par means expert play under ordinary weather conditions, allowing two strokes on the putting green.

So, to the world your definition makes no sense.....at least on courses where there are holes that an expert would not be expected to make a 3 on. If anything, you are sounding like a frolfer person.

I wouldn't equate the definition of "par" from a ball golf website and transfer that definition to disc golf, that dosent apply. Ball golf and disc golf are completely different games with different types of equipment and have totally different course layouts. Disc golf courses aren't several miles long like ball golf courses. A ball will travel hundreds of yards when hit with a golf club while a disc will travel only hundreds of feet when thrown by hand. Completely different games altogether.

Par is 3.

 

[ejvogie]

None of the courses around here have any legitimate par 4s or 5s, so I play them all as a 3. Easier for me to keep score in my head that way. There's some work being done on 1 course here that may give some higher pars, but the guy in charge of the project may never be back in town

 

[Nathanbr2]

Just like the other thread, I marked other. I do the course par if it is a long or difficult course, otherwise I use 3's...so it is both for me.

Mine is very similar to this. I tend to play with a lot of newer players, who only have 150-175 foot drives (which makes a par 3- 600 footer a 6,7,8 on up :wall. Typically to counter this, and keep them coming back, we just play anything over 400ft as a par 4 (gotta love those 399 foot holes :clap. Par 5's are for pansies.:thmbdown:

If i'm playing with some of my better friends, who won't give up after a bad round, we generally play Straight Par 3's. Just to expediate scoring.

 

[Dave242]

Am I wrong or cant Jenkens, Climo, Doss and those "expert level" players get a 3 on a 1000 foot hole rather easily? IMO there should never be any hole longer than 1000 feet anyway. Thats a rediculous distance to throw a disc even if your a pro. And if you agree with me on that then there would never be anything other then 3 for par on any hole.

I don't agree with you on that, but there are hole designs that use other design elements besides sheer length that produce pars higher than 3.

Consider a hole that is an L shape followed by another L shape - heavily wooded so no shortcuts are possible with generous 40' wide fairways. 250' to a right angle bend, another 250' to a right angle bend, followed by another 250' to the basket. What would an expert player be expected to shoot on that hole?

 

[Dave242]

Am I wrong or cant Jenkens, Climo, Doss and those "expert level" players get a 3 on a 1000 foot hole rather easily?

I am not sure if Climo has the arm for it, but I think it is possible for those other guys to get a 3 maybe 1 out of 10 tries, but it is a little comical that you take one part of the definition and highlight it, but ignore the other part about taking 2 throws to hole out (thereby making it a par 4). By your logic here anything under 500' should then be a par-2.

 

[NDABRUSH]

I wouldn't equate the definition of "par" from a ball golf website and transfer that definition to disc golf, that dosent apply. Ball golf and disc golf are completely different games with different types of equipment and have totally different course layouts. Disc golf courses aren't several miles long like ball golf courses. A ball will travel hundreds of yards when hit with a golf club while a disc will travel only hundreds of feet when thrown by hand. Completely different games altogether.

Par is 3.

Completely different games.

 

[NDABRUSH]

I don't agree with you on that, but there are hole designs that use other design elements besides sheer length that produce pars higher than 3.

Consider a hole that is an L shape followed by another L shape - heavily wooded so no shortcuts are possible with generous 40' wide fairways. 250' to a right angle bend, another 250' to a right angle bend, followed by another 250' to the basket. What would an expert player be expected to shoot on that hole?

That hole makes me want to peal my skin from my body.

 

[magictenor1]

I am not sure if Climo has the arm for it, but I think it is possible for those other guys to get a 3 maybe 1 out of 10 tries, but it is a little comical that you take one part of the definition and highlight it, but ignore the other part about taking 2 throws to hole out (thereby making it a par 4). By your logic here anything under 500' should then be a par-2.

I'm with you there Dave. Terry C is fixated on par is 3 and is not going to let logic get in his way.

 

[Jukeshoe]

I started off playing the posted pars, but after going to a few courses with ridiculously lenient pars, I've decided to play it by ear. If it seems way too easy I'll go by all Par 3's, if it seems fair I'll play the posted pars.

 

[simpletwist]

I print the score card for each round from the links provided on this site. Then I use it to write the scores. There's some truly easy par 4s I play and some impossible par 3s. Its all a matter of how much lower you finish than those you play against. I record most of my scores so I see if I'm improving or not. Lately for a change of pace though, we haven't been keeping score at all.

 

[leppard]

Really the total number of throws is all that matters.

 

[Dave242]

Really the total number of throws is all that matters.

For scoring purposes you are correct. But to help a player understand whom the course was designed for, published Par can be good to know. There are other good and valid reasons why par is important too.

A course with thoughtful design has challenge built in for the target audience/player to achieve par, excitement & satisfaction designed in for birdies and disappointment & frustration built in for bogeys or worse. Playing courses that are targeted at ones skill level will produce those emotions....and those emotions are a huge part of why many people (the ones with at least one competitive gene in their bodies) get addicted to DG.

Now, if I play a course that is too short for me birdies are routine/boring, pars are disappointing and bogeys have nothing to do with the course punishing me and everything to do with my poor performance. Likewise, courses that are too long for me are impossible to birdie (so I miss out on that excitement) and have pars that are typically routine (shortish upshot every time). So the only emotion left is the disappointment & frustration of screwing up. To me, that is not a lot of fun since there is no upside and only downside in trying to do my best.

Of course in real life, most courses seem to try to offer a little to everyone which makes only half the holes (at best) good, rewarding and fun for any given person. But still, you can get a pretty good idea of whom the course was designed for by looking at the par listed on the signs.