PDGA True Amateurism Article

[DavidSauls]

Back to the pdga payout tables:
Even if nothing else changed it still might be good to keep up with the times and implement a more sliding scale, the current formula of could just be changed to the number of players in a division instead of the tier of the event.
something like: 10 or less players 50% 11-30 40% 31-50 33% 51+ 25% etc.

Like smoothing bumps in a rug, you fix one problem and another emerges.

Assuming you're still paying out something like 100%, in prizes and players packs---and if you're not, players will scream---a steeper payout table means even bigger prizes for the winners of Am divisions. That further aggravates the people who are offended that Ams win anything, and it gives greater incentive for players to not move up.

I think it was for these issues that the PDGA flattened the payout scale, and created so many Am divisions (so they're smaller, thus a smaller payout to winner). At least in part.

When I began there were two Am divisions (not counting gender/age divisions), and payouts were about the top 33%. So the trend has been away from both.

Now, if you didn't keep the 100% payout but let the TD keep an increasing share of the entry, your sliding scale might work better. But there'd be a whole new set of screams from the gallery.

 

[Jashwa]

The PDGA article on true amateurism mentions that DG has an amateur payout structure that is out of the norm compared to other sports and that there are "many good reasons why other sports use a true amateur model." After this, the article completely STOPS discussing this point, when in reality I believe it is the heart of the discussion.

Conforming to payout structures of other sports for the sake of conventionality is NOT the way to grow the sport of disc golf. We need to fully understand WHY these payout strucutres work for those sports and examine why they might/might not work for disc golf.

I am sitting on the edge of my seat to hear sound arguments on how this move is beneficial to disc golf, but until then I am skeptical.


opcorn:

 

[DavidSauls]

Rather than examining why almost every other amateur sport thrives without paying winners, wouldn't it be easier to consider why disc golf can't?

If it's true that it can't?

 

[DavidSauls]

---Then again, if the PDGA really wants to promote True Amateurism, wouldn't it make sense to entirely remove the Am payout requirements for all tiers?

 

[Jay Dub]

---Then again, if the PDGA really wants to promote True Amateurism, wouldn't it make sense to entirely remove the Am payout requirements for all tiers?

Yes it would.

IMO if disc golf wants to grow as a sport the amateurs have got to be treated like amateurs. No payouts, only the top 3-5 in each division to be rewarded trophies and the players package does not have to have the same value as your entry fee.

 

[Jashwa]

ummm see below.

 

[Jashwa]

Rather than examining why almost every other amateur sport thrives without paying winners, wouldn't it be easier to consider why disc golf can't?

If it's true that it can't?

Well, to say that almost every other amateur sport thrives without paying winners is wrong and it brings up another point that I have been meaning to introduce. There are probably hundreds of sports that use the true amateur system that do NOT thrive. The problem is that most of us probably haven't heard of them or are unfamiliar with their payout structure because they aren't thriving. Therefore, we have kind of a "biased sample" in that we can only base these decisions and opinions on the successful sports we have heard of.

 

[Jashwa]

Yes it would.

IMO if disc golf wants to grow as a sport the amateurs have got to be treated like amateurs. No payouts, only the top 3-5 in each division to be rewarded trophies and the players package does not have to have the same value as your entry fee.

Why do you think this will help grow the sport?

 

[Jay Dub]

Why do you think this will help grow the sport?

Looking at it from an outsider, if I was an outsider, I would wonder why the people who are not pros are getting paid or rewarded the way the Ams in disc golf get rewarded. Having a true amateur structure would make disc golf come across as more of a serious sport than it's current image does. IMO.

 

[Cgkdisc]

If the direction is toward "purifying" divisional meanings, then we also need to eliminate the fake pro divisions and amateurize players up to say 1020 rating with another am division (Expert) going from maybe 980 to 1020. This would also amateurize all Pro age based divisions who have no one with a rating above 1020. I don't see that happening. But it goes hand-in-hand if the PDGA wants to pursue a transition to traditional amateur divisions then our pros should be subject to similar changes.

 

[DavidSauls]

Well, to say that almost every other amateur sport thrives without paying winners is wrong and it brings up another point that I have been meaning to introduce. There are probably hundreds of sports that use the true amateur system that do NOT thrive. The problem is that most of us probably haven't heard of them or are unfamiliar with their payout structure because they aren't thriving. Therefore, we have kind of a "biased sample" in that we can only base these decisions and opinions on the successful sports we have heard of.

True, but all that come to my mind and all I've been associated with, do perfectly well without paying amateurs. If something works in 99 out of 100 situations, I wouldn't spend a lot of time figuring out how it worked in 99; I'd consider why it didn't work in one.

 

[rat106]

That is the stupidest last sentence I have ever read. "I am going to say my piece and do not care what anyone else thinks"

Currently you get some sort of recognition for placing in a high percentage. So this True-Amateurism is really only rewarding the top 2-3 guys out a a field of 100. I totally understand why they are doing this. It just seems odd to reduce the prize percentage buy so much.

I think Trophy only is great, but if they do that then they need to break it up more so more trophies are available. The more winners, the happier people will be.

So why not just give everyone that participates a trophy, just like in peewee soccer, then everyones a winner.

 

[RKelly]

This is just too funny. People complaining about "amateurism". "Oh no, I won't be able to place 3rd in intermediate and win $100 of merch (and I'll bitch about it only being worth $60), even though at least 9 other players had better scores." It really should be lower entry fee, small player's pack and trophies to top 3 per division. Or play pro if you want to win money. I know not everyone is good enough to win money in the pro divisions, but just like every other sport, EVERYONE IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH! (This includes me). When I first started, I couldn't believe that I could win stuff for not sucking as much as someone else. People on here complaining that if they can't win stuff then they will quit playing. Wow. They don't want nice player's packs for everyone, yet they want to "win" prizes even if 5-10-20-50 people played better than them. Sounds like they do think that everyone's entitled.

 

[Casual Squishy]

This is just too funny. People complaining about "amateurism". "Oh no, I won't be able to place 3rd in intermediate and win $100 of merch (and I'll bitch about it only being worth $60), even though at least 9 other players had better scores." It really should be lower entry fee, small player's pack and trophies to top 3 per division. Or play pro if you want to win money. I know not everyone is good enough to win money in the pro divisions, but just like every other sport, EVERYONE IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH! (This includes me). When I first started, I couldn't believe that I could win stuff for not sucking as much as someone else. People on here complaining that if they can't win stuff then they will quit playing. Wow. They don't want nice player's packs for everyone, yet they want to "win" prizes even if 5-10-20-50 people played better than them. Sounds like they do think that everyone's entitled.

That's amazing,not only did you totally miss the point, not one word of your response had anything at all to do with the original subject. Bet you didn't google a single thing.
Amateurism keeps the cream of the crop small and elite. Big outside money sports can afford to take that route because big money sports players don't want more competition. DG can't even support 100 people making a living off it, embracing amateurism makes it harder to grow that end. We know what your opinion is, now go read a book and come back with some facts. I'm always open to changing my mind if there's evidence that I'm wrong. Is anyone else?

 

[DavidSauls]

I'm a non-partisan. I'm neither offended by our blasphemous use of the word "amateur", nor convinced of the sanctity of Am payouts.

But I'm not convinced that a different financial model for our lower divisions would significantly change disc golf's growth, either. The only benchmark we have is the system that's been prominent, and our historic growth rates. And the appearance that an awful lot of players who are involved now, like the current system. But who's to say that, over time, a low-entry, no-payout system would produce greater growth? Or less?

 

[who-dat]

As an am - trophy only is fine with me as long as entry fees reflect that. No money should ever be taken from am entries to pay pro purses. If the pro purse cannot sustain itself then better sponsorships are needed,

This.

 

[Shipley]

When you ran track you raced 12 people in distance events, maybe a pool of 36 in sprints. Then their were awards for every single event. 100, 200, 400, 800, 1600, 3200, 4x100, 4x400, 4x200, 4x800, shot, disc, LG, TJ, HJ, ect.

That is over 45 awards, thanks for providing such a poor analogy that helped me support my point.

Reply not interested because you don't know what you are talking about, just showing you you are wrong.

The events you listed are all separate events, thus the large number of trophy's awarded. Disc golf tournaments can also have separate events such as putting, distance, freestyle etc. increasing the number of awards handed out. However awards for a disc golf tournament do not need to award 27th place as you suggested.
If you require compensation for paying a fee to compete in an amateur event, move up to pro or just play casual Disc Golf with friends.

 

[archmage]

Why do you think this will help grow the sport?

I feel the amateur entry fees are too high just because they have to be high enough to provide the payout for half the field, and that turns many people away from tournaments. I know many people that I have tried to get into tournaments, telling them how fun it is etc, turn away when I have mentioned the amount of the entry fee. Of course the entry fee doesn't feel that much if you know you're going to end up in the prizes, as then you're pretty much playing for free anyway or even getting a profit, but for those who don't believe they can get to the prizes, the price of entry feels high, and they end up missing the tournament experiences. This leads to less people joining tournaments, and maybe some of them could have become really good at it or really enjoy it, but they never got in because of the barrier of entry.

Of course in places where tournaments fill up anyway this probably doesn't feel like an important issue, but I feel the more people we can get playing tournaments, the more disc golf will grow as a sport and not just pastime.

 

[DavidSauls]

I feel the amateur entry fees are too high just because they have to be high enough to provide the payout for half the field, and that turns many people away from tournaments. I know many people that I have tried to get into tournaments, telling them how fun it is etc, turn away when I have mentioned the amount of the entry fee. Of course the entry fee doesn't feel that much if you know you're going to end up in the prizes, as then you're pretty much playing for free anyway or even getting a profit, but for those who don't believe they can get to the prizes, the price of entry feels high, and they end up missing the tournament experiences. This leads to less people joining tournaments, and maybe some of them could have become really good at it or really enjoy it, but they never got in because of the barrier of entry.

Of course in places where tournaments fill up anyway this probably doesn't feel like an important issue, but I feel the more people we can get playing tournaments, the more disc golf will grow as a sport and not just pastime.

Not quite right. The high entry fees are needed to have a richer payout. You could pay out half the field, regardless of the amount of entry. But payouts are definitely the tail that wags the entry fee dog.

It's hard to measure how many people declined to ever start playing tournaments because of the amount of entries, against how many continued playing tournaments because they won something.

Certainly places where tournaments fill weren't always so, and got there under this system.

 

[DavidSauls]

It's hard to measure how many people declined to ever start playing tournaments because of the amount of entries, against how many continued playing tournaments because they won something.

Of course, you can try this experiment. In an area where tournaments are of the high entry/high payout model, someone could run a low-entry, no-payout event. See how many new players join, versus how many established players don't show.

It won't prove anything, but will give you a perspective on the desires of a majority of Am disc golfers