PDGA True Amateurism Article

[dusty5150]

"Now with sponsorship spelled correctly since 6:27 pm."

:hfive:

 

[Shipley]

Professionals or "pros", should play for money. Ams should play for trophy's.

 

[prerube]

so are they going to give a trophy to the guy who finishes 27th place (assuming 27th place is in the top 25 % [25% was a random percentage]) . Who wants to display a 27th place trophy?

 

[yankees23]

Not I prerube. Not I.

I don't mind playing for a trophy. I have competed in Advanced all last year and am competing in Pro this year but not accepting cash yet for the sake of Am Worlds.

 

[Shipley]

so are they going to give a trophy to the guy who finishes 27th place (assuming 27th place is in the top 25 % [25% was a random percentage]) . Who wants to display a 27th place trophy?

Why award someone a trophy for finishing in 27th place? When I ran track in school, I received several plaques for placing in the top three, but I didn't receive money, running shoes or other gear with monetary value attached to it, because I wasn't a professional.

Reply not interested in starting this debate back up, just stating my position.

 

[Smigles]

I, as an amatuer player, care. I don't mind kicking some of my entry fee to a pro purse (isn't that what ace pools are for LOL?) But if you are asking me to pay 50 bucks or more for a shot at only a trophy, and the players package is scrappy or sub-par, just so that the Pros can get another 5 bucks or whatever per Am to their purse, then that's where the problem comes in.

So you dont realy care about trophy vs cash payout, but you care about having the chance to get your money back if you win your division.

Ace pool is not for funding the pros, amateurs can throw aces aswell.

We pay 50 bucks here in switzerland just for being allowed to play the tournament at all. They dont organise themself, and the gear isnt for free either. I would never dream of having the cheek to demand for something in return except to be able to play the course that weekend...

But hey, I guess the more you have the more you become a cheapskate.

 

[AndyJB]

So you dont realy care about trophy vs cash payout, but you care about having the chance to get your money back if you win your division.

Ace pool is not for funding the pros, amateurs can throw aces aswell.

We pay 50 bucks here in switzerland just for being allowed to play the tournament at all. They dont organise themself, and the gear isnt for free either. I would never dream of having the cheek to demand for something in return except to be able to play the course that weekend...

But hey, I guess the more you have the more you become a cheapskate.

What's your damage, sports fan? You seem to take personal offends with me, which is silly. First off, LOL stands for "Laugh Out Loud" which means what I said about ace pools was a joke.

Are courses in Switzerland all pay-to-play? If so, kudos, because I bet it keeps out much of the riff-raff we have to deal with here in America. If not, why would you pay 50 bucks to play a course you could normally play for free?

 

[prerube]

Why award someone a trophy for finishing in 27th place? When I ran track in school, I received several plaques for placing in the top three, but I didn't receive money, running shoes or other gear with monetary value attached to it, because I wasn't a professional.

Reply not interested in starting this debate back up, just stating my position.

That is the stupidest last sentence I have ever read. "I am going to say my piece and do not care what anyone else thinks"

Currently you get some sort of recognition for placing in a high percentage. So this True-Amateurism is really only rewarding the top 2-3 guys out a a field of 100. I totally understand why they are doing this. It just seems odd to reduce the prize percentage buy so much.

I think Trophy only is great, but if they do that then they need to break it up more so more trophies are available. The more winners, the happier people will be.

 

[tallpaul]

Payouts used to be top 25%. It would seem that has increased to a higher percentage (I have not played official tournies in some time). Tourny numbers have grown tremendously since those days; so, it must be something that is working.

 

[AndyJB]

Whoops...submitted before I finished.

And how is asking for something being cheeky? Its a Goddamn PDGA rule, guy. I didn't make the rule, but if you say you wouldn't enjoy a Players Pack for a tourney, you're likely lying. I love having Merch from tourneys with their stamp on it....and, as I said before, I often buy additional merchandise from the tourney. With my money. That I work for.

You seem to have greatly misconstrued what I said, and then decided to insult me like I'm some freeloader who has never worked for anything in my life. I'm not some punk kid who uses daddy's money to pay for a tournament and them whines when I don't get more than I put in just because I also like to throw discs. I'm a 30 year-old man with a wife, daughter and a home. We are a single income family. So yes, if you're asking me to shell out 50 bucks (or more) for a tournament that only gives out 3 trophies and no players packs and is held on a course I can play anytime I want for free, I'm not going to play. And many, many other players in my boat will also skip it.

Now, if you ask me to pay 20 bucks or less for that same scenario, then you bet I'll be there to au and know that a good chunk of that is going to support the course /club, whatever. And you'll get people turning out in droves. THAT is what's good for the sport. To be a true amatuer sport, it has to be way more affordable. High School sports (which were used as a previous example) are affordable. You pay for a sports physical (usually around 50 bucks and is good for a year...hey, just like a PDGA membership!) No one pays to play any event. They are paid for by school funds...usury like (in theroy) a tournammet could be paid for by sponsors. That makes it a cost-free event.

I'm simplifying things of course, but my points stand and are valid.

As for your snippy little comment about being a cheapskate because I want to get my value back from competition...Kant that EXACTLY WHAT THE OPEN DIVISION IS TRYING TO DO?

 

[RShott]

My two cents....

Am should be trophy only.

Pro should be sliding scale entry fee based on rating. Except for NTs.

I agree with this. I for one do not care about getting discs, I am set on my bag and the discs that I throw, so I would just end up with a bunch of plastic sitting in my garage.

I would prefer to play for money, but wouldn't want to pay pro entry fees when I know that 95 percent of the time I won't even come close to cashing. However, if the entry fee for pro was on a sliding scale I would definitely play pro because I would have the chance to win some money (even if the odds are low), but the entry fee would be low enough that I wouldn't care about the fact that most of the time I would not cash.

It would kinda be like playing the lottery -- the odds of me winning are very low, but a ticket is cheap, so what the hell, I'll play because it is fun and you never know, one day I might get lucky and win.

I think the combination of trophy only ams and sliding scale pros, would definitely motivate more people to move up to pro, which would in turn increase pro playing fields and the purse.

 

[iHitTree]

I play in PDGA tournaments either Advanced or Intermediate for plastic. I play for the player packs, the mercy voucher pay outs. Obviously I play for fun, but I spend about $1000 per year on tournaments as a way to have, fun, improve my game, meet competitive players and movers/shakers in DG, and to acquire a library of discs. I look at it like: pay $20-40 for a tournament and come out with a disc is better than simply buying plastic.

I would be upset to compete for trophies only and would severely curtail my tournament play...

 

[iHitTree]

Merch* voucher payouts

 

[New013]

TDs should continue to have the option to run their tourney any way they see fit when it comes to prizes.

...and I think for the foreseeable future they will. Let the free market decide what players want.

 

[DavidSauls]

TDs should continue to have the option to run their tourney any way they see fit when it comes to prizes.

...and I think for the foreseeable future they will. Let the free market decide what players want.

This concept seems to bug a lot of people.

*

Anyway, to the O.P., not every slope is slippery, and I doubt this AmWorlds decision is leading to a "True Amateurism" mandate on lower tiers. Note that it doesn't apply to NTs at all, which are pro-only events.

If there's a change down at the B- and C-tier level, it'll be because TDs tried a different financial structure, and players liked it.

 

[prerube]

Why award someone a trophy for finishing in 27th place? When I ran track in school, I received several plaques for placing in the top three, but I didn't receive money, running shoes or other gear with monetary value attached to it, because I wasn't a professional.

Reply not interested in starting this debate back up, just stating my position.

When you ran track you raced 12 people in distance events, maybe a pool of 36 in sprints. Then their were awards for every single event. 100, 200, 400, 800, 1600, 3200, 4x100, 4x400, 4x200, 4x800, shot, disc, LG, TJ, HJ, ect.

That is over 45 awards, thanks for providing such a poor analogy that helped me support my point.

Reply not interested because you don't know what you are talking about, just showing you you are wrong.

 

[3j0hn]

The other two sports that I have experience with:

In rock climbing competitions, entry fees are $45 and 99% of people get a t-shirt and a "players pack" or a chance at a prize draw. 1% get big prizes or money. These competitions are popular around here, and will draw 200 people for a day.

In marathons, thousands of people pay $100+ to run with the top 5-10 open men and women winning a lot of money (thousands of dollars). Everyone else gets a shirt, and a participation metal. And, possibly a chance at a small prize if they win their age protected division.

The typical disc golf AM model of most of the entry fee being split across 50% of the field for "funny money" prizes is really weird in context of these other sports.

Whether or not we ever get to see more top Pros be able to live off their Disc golf winnings, I would really like to see more top Tournament Directors being able to make a living running great events.

 

[Casual Squishy]

The other two sports that I have experience with:

In rock climbing competitions, entry fees are $45 and 99% of people get a t-shirt and a "players pack" or a chance at a prize draw. 1% get big prizes or money. These competitions are popular around here, and will draw 200 people for a day.

In marathons, thousands of people pay $100+ to run with the top 5-10 open men and women winning a lot of money (thousands of dollars). Everyone else gets a shirt, and a participation metal. And, possibly a chance at a small prize if they win their age protected division.

The typical disc golf AM model of most of the entry fee being split across 50% of the field for "funny money" prizes is really weird in context of these other sports.
Whether or not we ever get to see more top Pros be able to live off their Disc golf winnings, I would really like to see more top Tournament Directors being able to make a living running great events.

I think the payout scales have changed at least a few times over the years. Not what sure the current "cut" level is in something like pro golf maybe somewhere around top third? But, it's much simpler and easier when you're paying 20-25 people in cash. DG these days you can have to payout 30-40 people in a one day tournament if it's mostly ams which places a burden on TDs to provide enough good merch selection to make players happy.. Which can be tough under many circumstances. If your TD's not already a dealer (Which is why DD, Spike Hyzer, etc. type companies are probably doing quite well in the "Traveling tour for hire" department) he either has to hold fundraisers enough in advance to buy a supply, have money from the local club for it, or find someone local to work out the plastic payouts for them. It's that or take cash out of his own pocket and hope to break even. Today, with so many discs by so many companies, it's getting harder and harder for a large field to find anything they want or need at smaller tournaments. It's probably a wash, as it always seems like at least half of TDs also sell plastic, but it's probably a serious drawback for newer TDs in some areas. If I were to have to run a tournament today I'd probably buy the player pack discs and just do the am payouts in pdga memberships and gas cards. (ok, probably not as we have several good local dealers.. but maybe..)
Back to the pdga payout tables:
Even if nothing else changed it still might be good to keep up with the times and implement a more sliding scale, the current formula of could just be changed to the number of players in a division instead of the tier of the event.
something like: 10 or less players 50% 11-30 40% 31-50 33% 51+ 25% etc.

 

[GT Chris]

Couple things to add here. Moving from Atlanta, GA to Austin, TX I've noticed that players are much more interested in playing for money out here. As someone who is an amateur and will always be an amateur, that really turned me off of league play. It seems like the only reason some people play is to try and hit the $500 ace pot, which to me is against the spirit of the game. I don't see weekend golf as a source of income, and I don't think any other amateur player should either. If I'm playing to see if I can beat you and the course, and you are playing for gas money to put in your car, then we don't need to be playing in the same event.

None of my most enjoyable rounds have had money on the line. I've played over a dozen college tournaments with no cash prizes, usually just a trophy or medals for the top team, and I wouldn't prefer them any other way. When I pay entry fees in regular tournaments, I view that as a sunk cost paying for the privilege of playing in an organized competition against other players. If I win anything I consider it a bonus, because I'm not counting on getting anything back. I'm aware that I'm part of a minority, but that doesn't mean players like me don't exist.

 

[sidewinder22]

When you ran track you raced 12 people in distance events, maybe a pool of 36 in sprints. Then their were awards for every single event. 100, 200, 400, 800, 1600, 3200, 4x100, 4x400, 4x200, 4x800, shot, disc, LG, TJ, HJ, ect.

That is over 45 awards, thanks for providing such a poor analogy that helped me support my point.

Reply not interested because you don't know what you are talking about, just showing you you are wrong.