Phantom foot fault call

[Hyzflip10]

This is definitely a pet peeves of mine.

I played in a non sanctioned tournament last weekend. It was a fun time, and I finished in second place in a playoff after the final nine holes. Considering I wasn't expecting much, it was a very successful day for me

In the first round, going into the last hole, I was tied with the player who was considered the favorite at one over par. He bogeyed, and I birdied to take a two stroke lead.

After I hit my 22 foot putt, I clapped my hands and started walking toward the basket to retrieve my disc. I could tell he was annoyed that he was now two strokes behind. Instead of congratulating me on a good round, he pulled a bush league move and tried to call me on a foot fault for walking toward the basket. I asked the TD and course owner afterward and they both agreed that there was no foot fault.

The sequence was:. I straddle putted from 22 feet, watched the disc hit the chains while maintaining balance behind my disc, clapped my hands and took a step forward to retrieve my disc. He claimed since I took a step forward it was a falling putt, but that he wasn't going to call it since it wasn't sanctioned. I just assumed he was showing sour grapes. Either call it, or don't call it. I would have taken a provisional and made my case with the TD. I ignored him and turned in the card after the other players confirmed the scores. I asked the TD and he had no problems.

Any advice advice or feedback? There are too many people trying to call random foot faults as a joke so I never really know when someone is just trying to be a jerk.

 

[DavidSauls]

Move on.

Sour grapes, or advisory. If someone cautions you that something could have been called, they might just be trying to be helpful in the future. Or maybe not. If earlier in the round, they could be trying to get into your head. Or maybe not.

But he didn't call it. So take it either way, and take the victory.

P.S. If he had called it, it would be the other players in the group, not the TD, who you'd turn to. Assuming the TD didn't see it, how can he determine whether you maintained balance?

 

[JC17393]

First off, one person can't call a foot fault alone. It requires a second to stand. Second, no need for provisionals as there are no re-throws anymore. A validly called and seconded stance violation is simply a one throw penalty added to the existing throw.

From your description, it doesn't seem like you faulted. Without having seen it first-hand, it's difficult to say for certain. That the guy did the passive-aggressive "you faulted but I'm not gonna call you on it" thing suggests to me that he doesn't know the rules all that well and was hoping you didn't either. It was an empty threat unless someone else in the group was willing to confirm, and it's them you should be asking rather than the TD and course owner. Unless they were the other players on the card.

 

[Hyzflip10]

First off, one person can't call a foot fault alone. It requires a second to stand. Second, no need for provisionals as there are no re-throws anymore. A validly called and seconded stance violation is simply a one throw penalty added to the existing throw.

From your description, it doesn't seem like you faulted. Without having seen it first-hand, it's difficult to say for certain. That the guy did the passive-aggressive "you faulted but I'm not gonna call you on it" thing suggests to me that he doesn't know the rules all that well and was hoping you didn't either. It was an empty threat unless someone else in the group was willing to confirm, and it's them you should be asking rather than the TD and course owner. Unless they were the other players on the card.

The other player also said it possibly could have been a foot fault but really wasn't sure. The wording was that someone might try to call it in a sanctioned tourney.

They were both annoyed with me that I mentioned they weren't marking their disc at the beginning of the round and the TD was firm that disc needed to be marked, we couldn't just pick up a disc and throw it. Neither were at the players meeting and are used to playing informal on weekends at this course. The one player was also slowing us down by taking over 30 seconds per throw, and also putting out of turn on at least 4 occasions. I would have called all those in a sanctioned event. So I was surprised they would try to point out my potential foot fault.

One thing I suppose I can do is take an extra split second before walking to the basket to avoid this potential situation in the future. Or maybe pick up my mini first before walking.

 

[ru4por]

Move on.

Sour grapes, or advisory. If someone cautions you that something could have been called, they might just be trying to be helpful in the future. Or maybe not. If earlier in the round, they could be trying to get into your head. Or maybe not.

But he didn't call it. So take it either way, and take the victory.

P.S. If he had called it, it would be the other players in the group, not the TD, who you'd turn to. Assuming the TD didn't see it, how can he determine whether you maintained balance?

First off, one person can't call a foot fault alone. It requires a second to stand. Second, no need for provisionals as there are no re-throws anymore. A validly called and seconded stance violation is simply a one throw penalty added to the existing throw.

From your description, it doesn't seem like you faulted. Without having seen it first-hand, it's difficult to say for certain. That the guy did the passive-aggressive "you faulted but I'm not gonna call you on it" thing suggests to me that he doesn't know the rules all that well and was hoping you didn't either. It was an empty threat unless someone else in the group was willing to confirm, and it's them you should be asking rather than the TD and course owner. Unless they were the other players on the card.

There is always two sides, huh? Rules should be enforced, sanctioned or not. Money, script and/or trophies are on the line. If should be fair. Two people on the card were dubious about your putt, maybe they were right? Rarely do I see anyone intentionally foot fault. Generally, the offending player is not aware of doing it.

Intent is not at issue. Douche move or educational. He did not call it, I would smile and walk. As far as your cardmates violating rules, irritation is on you, not them. Call them or own you irritation.

Stuff like this used to get me worked up, but life is too short, man. I am out there to have a good time. I think it was Climo who had the take that we spend only a few minutes a round concentrating on our shot, spend the rest of the time enjoying the walk.

 

[krupicka]

Or maybe pick up my mini first before walking.

I recommend this to a lot of players who sometimes don't really pause to go retrieve their putt and/or to just make it very clear that balance was demonstrated.

 

[Hyzflip10]

There is always two sides, huh? Rules should be enforced, sanctioned or not. Money, script and/or trophies are on the line. If should be fair. Two people on the card were dubious about your putt, maybe they were right? Rarely do I see anyone intentionally foot fault. Generally, the offending player is not aware of doing it.

Intent is not at issue. Douche move or educational. He did not call it, I would smile and walk. As far as your cardmates violating rules, irritation is on you, not them. Call them or own you irritation.

Stuff like this used to get me worked up, but life is too short, man. I am out there to have a good time. I think it was Climo who had the take that we spend only a few minutes a round concentrating on our shot, spend the rest of the time enjoying the walk.

True. It didn't effect my enjoyment of the tourney at all. In the past that may have affected how I did rest of the tourney, but I was able to let it go pretty quickly and played way over my head the other two rounds.

I'll pay attention in the off season and if I need to make adjustments I'll work on them.

Wasn't Climo the one who called 5 questionable foot faults on Stokely a few years back at a tourney? I blame him for the state of random foot foul calls I saw at league around here anytime anyone made a good shot.

It is the case if boy crying wolf. It's difficult to know genuine concern for the rules from gamesmanship.

 

[JC17393]

True. It didn't effect my enjoyment of the tourney at all. In the past that may have affected how I did rest of the tourney, but I was able to let it go pretty quickly and played way over my head the other two rounds.

I'll pay attention in the off season and if I need to make adjustments I'll work on them.

Wasn't Climo the one who called 5 questionable foot faults on Stokely a few years back at a tourney? I blame him for the state of random foot foul calls I saw at league around here anytime anyone made a good shot.

It is the case if boy crying wolf. It's difficult to know genuine concern for the rules from gamesmanship.

Stokely's faults weren't all that questionable. He missed his mark, he does it often, it's not really a secret. The greater objection to Climo's calling them was the timing and the seeming conspiracy between he and an Innova teammate on the card to call them at a crucial moment that ultimately cost Stokely a berth in the final 9 (with another Innova player taking the spot).

If you see someone commit a fault, you call it. Sanctioned or unsanctioned, lead card or bottom card, first throw of the round or the last, if it's a fault, you call it. If it's not, you don't. The notion of "random" foot fault calls goes back waaaaaaaay before the Climo-Stokely at Worlds incident. Players have always been reticent to make calls unless they have something to gain by it. It's a ****ty way to play.

 

[Hyzflip10]

Stokely's faults weren't all that questionable. He missed his mark, he does it often, it's not really a secret. The greater objection to Climo's calling them was the timing and the seeming conspiracy between he and an Innova teammate on the card to call them at a crucial moment that ultimately cost Stokely a berth in the final 9 (with another Innova player taking the spot).

If you see someone commit a fault, you call it. Sanctioned or unsanctioned, lead card or bottom card, first throw of the round or the last, if it's a fault, you call it. If it's not, you don't. The notion of "random" foot fault calls goes back waaaaaaaay before the Climo-Stokely at Worlds incident. Players have always been reticent to make calls unless they have something to gain by it. It's a ****ty way to play.

I vaguely remember watching slo mo of stokelys foot faults that tourney. At least one or two, his plant foot seemed in line with the center of the disc and the basket within 10 inches. He was throwing on such a weird anhyzer angle that his throw was going pretty far left of the line.

I am glad the rule was changed this year to make it more obvious.

I am seeing the benefit of calling any infraction anytime it happens. Part of the reason I have been moving away from tournies and toward casual play is that while most tournies are fun and professionally run, rarely does anyone play by the rules all the time and it takes away from the enjoyment of the game for me.

From TDs going rogue when setting cards (1st round and subsequent rounds), to people taking longer than 30 seconds, talking while other people are throwing, outright gamesmanship, throwing tantrums when called on courtesy violations, etc etc.

There isn't enough $$ at my level to make it worthwhile, and I have more fun and relaxation doing my own thing. I play well enough to cash at most events I play, but time, travel, food and aggravation aren't worth it for me.

I love this game too much to be annoyed by it.

 

[Reniger]

Rule number 1: Don't be a dick. You did the right thing. I've had similar situations in sanctioned tournaments where people get sour and try to manipulate rules or call phantom violations to improve their own position.

The last one resulted in the TD disqualifying the harasser after he tried to call illegitimate calls on two separate cards and was reported to the TD. The TD gave him 2 courtesy violations (one for each card) and when the player lost his cool on the TD, he was DQ'd for Cheating and Misconduct and reported to the PDGA by the TD.

 

[Grippenripp]

I heard somewhere that it's a good habit to put your foot back down and pick up your mini before moving JIC. secondly I feel that people calling foot faults are 50/50 salty/in the spirit of sportsmanship. All in all sounds like you had a good day.

 

[Steve West]

I heard somewhere that it's a good habit to put your foot back down and pick up your mini before moving JIC. secondly I feel that people calling foot faults are 50/50 salty/in the spirit of sportsmanship. All in all sounds like you had a good day.

Even take a step backward. If you're not falling toward the basket, it's easy. If you can't, you're falling.

I think I could clap my hands before my foot landed while falling forward. I don't see why that has anything to do with whether or not it should be called.

Also, why ask the course owner?

At an UNsanctioned tournament, you just go by whatever rules everyone agrees to. I've been in some where the TD announces "We ain't gonna do none o' that foot fault calling crap". Which is perfectly fine.

 

[Hyzflip10]

Even take a step backward. If you're not falling toward the basket, it's easy. If you can't, you're falling.

I think I could clap my hands before my foot landed while falling forward. I don't see why that has anything to do with whether or not it should be called.

Also, why ask the course owner?

At an UNsanctioned tournament, you just go by whatever rules everyone agrees to. I've been in some where the TD announces "We ain't gonna do none o' that foot fault calling crap". Which is perfectly fine.

Nobody was disputing the sequence of events - putt hit chains, I clapped and purposely took a step forward. They weren't arguing that I fell forward, just that the step forward constituted a foot fault. I asked the course owner same as I am asking you all. He has many years experience and never heard of that being called. Why not ask the course owner? While he had no power to make a ruling, he definitely could offer a good perspective.

I see absolutely no reason to take a step backwards. Why add an unnecessary step to appease one person who I suspect had dubious intentions?

The more I think about this, I likely won't change anything. I have been doing the same routine for a while now, even with the hand clap and no one has ever said a thing.

 

[Hyzflip10]

I heard somewhere that it's a good habit to put your foot back down and pick up your mini before moving JIC. secondly I feel that people calling foot faults are 50/50 salty/in the spirit of sportsmanship. All in all sounds like you had a good day.

Definitely good feedback, thank you. The weird part of the whole thing is that it was a straddle putt so my foot was never off the ground until I stepped forward toward the basket.

Ill probably start picking up my mini now. It will probably save me from losing minis also. I go through 3 or 4 a season.

 

[Grippenripp]

Definitely good feedback, thank you. The weird part of the whole thing is that it was a straddle putt so my foot was never off the ground until I stepped forward toward the basket.

Ill probably start picking up my mini now. It will probably save me from losing minis also. I go through 3 or 4 a season.

Haha. It's helped me in more ways than one as well. Approach the lie, drop the mini, take stance, putt and watch it fall pick up mini. Slows you down and it has helped me be more consistent and confident to have this process of ritual, whatever you want to call it.

 

[Hyzflip10]

Haha. It's helped me in more ways than one as well. Approach the lie, drop the mini, take stance, putt and watch it fall pick up mini. Slows you down and it has helped me be more consistent and confident to have this process of ritual, whatever you want to call it.

Sounds good. I'll definitely work on that during the off season. Thanks again for the helpful feedback!

 

[ru4por]

Rule number 1: Don't be a dick. You did the right thing. I've had similar situations in sanctioned tournaments where people get sour and try to manipulate rules or call phantom violations to improve their own position.

The last one resulted in the TD disqualifying the harasser after he tried to call illegitimate calls on two separate cards and was reported to the TD. The TD gave him 2 courtesy violations (one for each card) and when the player lost his cool on the TD, he was DQ'd for Cheating and Misconduct and reported to the PDGA by the TD.

Can a TD call a courtesy violation on a player for something a player did out on the course?

 

[JC17393]

Can a TD call a courtesy violation on a player for something a player did out on the course?

Yes, the TD can call a courtesy violation as he/she is an Official.

812.C. A player receives a warning for the first violation of any courtesy rule. Each subsequent violation of any courtesy rule by that player in the same round incurs one penalty throw. A courtesy violation may be called or confirmed by any affected player, or by an Official. Repeated courtesy violations may result in disqualification by the Director.​

The catch I think is that if the TD is assessing a courtesy violation after the round has been completed, it can only be the one violation and it wouldn't carry over to the following rounds. And if I'm understanding the described instance, the player committed his poor behavior in two separate rounds on two separate cards, for which the TD issued two separate warnings that should not compound into a penalty.

That being the case, his over-reaction to it and subsequent DQ is justified. However, if the TD issued multiple courtesy violations with the purpose of adding a penalty to the player's score, I think the player being upset at the TD overstepping his bounds would be justifiable. Doesn't excuse escalating to the point of being disqualified, but it's arguable he was unfairly provoked as well.

 

[Reniger]

JC is exactly right. A TD can make the final call and determine if a player is penalized for behavior. However, compiling multiple penalty strokes after a card is turn in is where it gets sketchy. Either way, the guy blew his top and got himself DQ'd. The six other players that were on cards with him literally applauded when the TD told him to leave. No reason to be a jerk.

 

[araytx]

I heard somewhere that it's a good habit to put your foot back down and pick up your mini before moving JIC. secondly I feel that people calling foot faults are 50/50 salty/in the spirit of sportsmanship. All in all sounds like you had a good day.

Even take a step backward. If you're not falling toward the basket, it's easy. If you can't, you're falling.

I think I could clap my hands before my foot landed while falling forward. I don't see why that has anything to do with whether or not it should be called.

Also, why ask the course owner?

At an UNsanctioned tournament, you just go by whatever rules everyone agrees to. I've been in some where the TD announces "We ain't gonna do none o' that foot fault calling crap". Which is perfectly fine.

Haha. It's helped me in more ways than one as well. Approach the lie, drop the mini, take stance, putt and watch it fall pick up mini. Slows you down and it has helped me be more consistent and confident to have this process of ritual, whatever you want to call it.

Interesting the number of people talking about putting the "off foot/back foot" down. Didn't the OP say he was putting from a straddle. Like several pros (K Jones, N Sexton, Nikko, Zach M), I putt primarily from a straddle. Your "off foot is always down, so...

The other player also said it possibly could have been a foot fault but really wasn't sure. The wording was that someone might try to call it in a sanctioned tourney. ...

Or maybe pick up my mini first before walking.

...yeah, just do that.