Power Pocket and Arc-My new video

[drk_evns]

Ive reread a lot of those discussions and I don't believe any of my posts were deleted.

I don't know if you have me confused with someone else but I wasn't EVER trolling him. All of it was about disc golf and Everything I said I meant. In fact, the main thing I didn't agree with him on was his opinion on KJ's lower body mechanics.

After we disagreed on that, we had a friendly discussion about the amps he builds (check the threads it's still there).

I also didn't "follow" him to Facebook, I was a part of the form critique group long before he left here and ran over there.

I'm moving on now but thought it was appropriate to clear the air on those unfair points.

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

Fair enough man, I'm not trying to start something either, I remember the conversation on the amps... sounded like you guys were getting along. I was misinformed about Facebook. Happy to clear that up and move on too.

I know it was post 42 can't remember he made it for posted it but it was no overhead diagram of Mike C and the reverse K and between all that I finally put some stuff together I've struggled with for years

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

Some of the descriptions could use updating but this and SW's to down of KY from earlier show it in action - https://imgur.com/Alq70Di

Rhatton1 for the win!!! Post#42 (thats fate) Thankyou man.. Thank you!

 

[Tinkles]

It really helps me if I think about it like this instead: Get into an athletic position and get the disc in the power pocket with your elbow forward like it should be. Now, without moving your shoulder joint, extend your lower arm (say hello to the hit, approx. 45 degrees left of target like BW says). Now rotate your upper body without moving your arm until you're in a wide reachback position. Say hello to your backswing. Now rotate as if you were throwing your disc slowly, but keep your shoulder joint static (never closes, even a little bit) and allow the elbow to be somewhat loose. You should feel the rotation force your elbow closed a little bit and then SNAP back to straight right to the hit point you addressed before.

Brad's video to start this thread and this post really helped something click. I feel like I finally have an understanding of closed shoulder and how simple the arm movement is during the throw. The upper arm stays in place (closed) and the forearm just goes from extended (backswing) to collapsed back (mid swing - where the beato drill starts from) to extended (hit/release).

This also helped me figure out another reason I was pulling discs right even when I thought I had good form. I was opening the shoulder.

This also helped me realize why the Beato drill wasn't working for me. When watching Beato, what I thought I was seeing was a wide open shoulder. Doing that drill with an open shoulder feels powerless. I was thinking what kind of freak fast twitch muscles does this dude have to be able to generate any leverage from this position. The drill seemed useless. Now understanding that you have to have a closed shoulder (90 ish degree upper arm to chest angle), I can understand the drill.

This should help people's understanding of how bad an open shoulder is and what Brad is talking about with the size of the arc. Try the Beato drill with a wide open shoulder. You will have a small arc and no power. Now try it the right way with a closed shoulder. You will have much more leverage and a bigger arc.

 

[drk_evns]

The shoulder is counter intuitive... in my head I'm always attempting to keep a wide angle 90 degrees at the VERY least. That's what gets you into the power pocket and not hugging yourself. (BW calls it the "inward pull" because it really does feel like all you're doing is pulling the disc towards you into your power pocket)

HOWEVER, from the power pocket to the hit, the shoulder angle is DECREASING to 90 degrees. (This is the "outward ejection" BW talks about). Your shoulder is essentially staying where you set it in the power pocket, but the elbow and wrist extend to the hit and your chest rotates to make the shoulder angle compress.

 

[Tinkles]

I also think that possibly:
1) "Wide rail" is really just a byproduct of your closed shoulder angle being more like 120 degrees rather than 90.
2) The power benefit of the wide rail comes from the same source Beato talks about when he mentions the further forward you can move the power pocket, the further you throw. Your upper arm being at 120ish degrees allows you to fully leverage a closed shoulder and naturally moves the power pocket foward. I don't know what the magic angle is (just guessing with the 120) but I think that is all this comes down too.

 

[drk_evns]

I also think that possibly:

1) "Wide rail" is really just a byproduct of your closed shoulder angle being more like 120 degrees rather than 90.

2) The power benefit of the wide rail comes from the same source Beato talks about when he mentions the further forward you can move the power pocket, the further you throw. Your upper arm being at 120ish degrees allows you to fully leverage a closed shoulder and naturally moves the power pocket foward. I don't know what the magic angle is (just guessing with the 120) but I think that is all this comes down too.

I've always believed "wide rail" to be the "correct" way to throw. I don't see it as a style difference. I see it as not hugging yourself.

Some do it more dramatically than others.

 

[timothy42b]

I also think that possibly:
1) "Wide rail" is really just a byproduct of your closed shoulder angle being more like 120 degrees rather than 90.
2) The power benefit of the wide rail comes from the same source Beato talks about when he mentions the further forward you can move the power pocket, the further you throw. Your upper arm being at 120ish degrees allows you to fully leverage a closed shoulder and naturally moves the power pocket foward. I don't know what the magic angle is (just guessing with the 120) but I think that is all this comes down too.

Ah. With my upper arm at 90 degrees, the disc at my left pec, my forearm points that magic 30 degrees left of line that Brad was talking about.

 

[drk_evns]

Ah. With my upper arm at 90 degrees, the disc at my left pec, my forearm points that magic 30 degrees left of line that Brad was talking about.

When you say upper arm at 90, do you mean the elbow or shoulder joint?

Shoulder should be greater than 90. It's like the bare minimum acceptable to not be hugging yourself, but the larger the angle, the more the shoulder will compress into the hit.

 

[Tinkles]

Ah. With my upper arm at 90 degrees, the disc at my left pec, my forearm points that magic 30 degrees left of line that Brad was talking about.

I think Brad shows the upper arm at 90 relative to the chest. I'm honestly not sure what Brad's position is on whether 90 degrees is perfect for that angle or not. I wasn't thinking about his thoughts on where the forearm should be aimed. I need to try that out though. I was more focused on the angle between the upper arm and chest. Brad's video helped me realize what closed shoulder really meant and how opening the shoulder entirely made a small weak arc. This helped me have a better understanding of the Beato drill and the throw in general.

Separate from Brad's video, I was speculating that the benefits of the "wide rail" concept might be the same as Beato talking about moving the power pocket forward.

If you pause your reach back at maximum extension and the angle between arm and chest is 90 degrees, then just make this angle closer to 120 and I think you are in the wide rail position on your reach back. Now keeping this angle relatively static as you start to bring the disc into the power pocket, you will (or at least I think I am) be able to bring the disc into the pocket a little more forward of when you kept your arm at 90 degrees. For me upper arm at 90 degrees, disc in power pocket is about centered over my sternum. Upper arm at 120 ish degrees, disc is centered more over my right pec.

drk_evns I think is saying that the real distance gains come from compression of the angle into the hit. I don't know enough on that to comment, but I think ultimately these teachers may all talking about the same thing in different ways:
wide rail = beato getting pocket more forward = drk_evns angle compressing into hit

 

[drk_evns]

wide rail = beato getting pocket more forward = drk_evns angle compressing into hit

Yep.

my shoulder is only ever at 90 degrees at the moment of the hit. Before that, I'm trying to keep it wide. (edit: the 120 degrees you mention is a good approximation).

The way I keep it wide in the power pocket is by using BW's brilliant description of "Inward pull, outward ejection." From reach back to power pocket, all I'm thinking about is pulling the disc into my pec. This makes it SO EASY to get your shoulder angle wide and the disc DEEP in the power pocket. From there, the disc will sort of blast out on its own if you're in balance and your lower body is working right.

 

[sidewinder22]

opcorn:

 

[slowplastic]

It's too bad he didn't want to stay and have a conversation and progression with all these thoughts. He gets to the same ideas as we discuss, and from different descriptions which can be helpful for having things click for different people.

But the "I heard someone say one word about this once so therefore everything has been wrong about everything until now" is too much...

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

Man I'm definitely a Fanboi on that one.. I appreciate everything! that everyone posts! but his quick reappearance really helped me. You read stuff 5+ or more different ways and then something just resonates. Like holy crap I get it.. I have been Beto'ing wrong but successfully for years.. I have got some nuggets off Stokely too..

I don't always do my homework, my attention span is shorter haha. Sidewinder22 is like the encyclopedia and I'm a Cole's notes guy.. Wait is it Cliff notes in the U.S.? I get a lot more of what SW22 was trying to get across now.. I think that's his diagram too from Rhatton1's post.... And I have watched hours worth.

He's always there.... Watching.. And being quoted.. Unknowingly... Without credit... Haha...
HUGE gains this year... just not distance..

 

[slowplastic]

Sidewinder22 is like the encyclopedia and I'm a Cole's notes guy.. Wait is it Cliff notes in the U.S.? I get a lot more of what SW22 was trying to get across now.. I think that's his diagram too from Rhatton1's post....

Yeah it just takes something to make it click different for each person. Then you can go back to some older videos you've seen before and pick up on so much more. Then you feel like a dummy for having it be "so obvious" but still not getting it until now haha

 

[drk_evns]

Yeah it just takes something to make it click different for each person. Then you can go back to some older videos you've seen before and pick up on so much more. Then you feel like a dummy for having it be "so obvious" but still not getting it until now haha

I live for those days! Love rewatching SW vids and picking up on sections that I couldn't decipher previously. Now when I realize I'm not really processing something in his videos, a little red flag pops up in my brain and says "hey dummy, you're not understanding this part, so it's something you should be focusing on"

BW was great at discovering things on his own and re-interpreting things in a fresh new way. It injected a little excitement and drama into this site and I think a lot of people benefitted from it. Just wish he was more willing to talk with people like SW and HUB instead of talking at them.

 

[sidewinder22]

BW teaching method:


My teaching method:

 

[slowplastic]

BW was great at discovering things on his own and re-interpreting things in a fresh new way.

Yeah, like I feel what he says with the left side coming through. I focus on getting the left shoulder forward to where the right shoulder was in the backswing, and by then you're in that position where he likes to have that outward arm swing. I don't really feel the forearm punch out like he says, but I definitely feel like I get to that position by focusing on the left shoulder. And he demonstrates the motion nicely.

SW says the same thing, I believe saying that his left shoulder goes to his right instep.

It's all similar, just depends on what your perspective is and what works to make it happen that first time so you can reproduce it in your throws.

 

[drk_evns]

Yeah, like I feel what he says with the left side coming through. I focus on getting the left shoulder forward to where the right shoulder was in the backswing, and by then you're in that position where he likes to have that outward arm swing. I don't really feel the forearm punch out like he says, but I definitely feel like I get to that position by focusing on the left shoulder. And he demonstrates the motion nicely.



SW says the same thing, I believe saying that his left shoulder goes to his right instep.



It's all similar, just depends on what your perspective is and what works to make it happen that first time so you can reproduce it in your throws.

Yeah totally. The forearm ejects out on its own for me if I'm focused on getting deep into the pocket. It's definitely not something I'm thinking about "punching" out. That's why I love the phrase: "inward pull, outward ejection" which I think BW coined himself.

 

[RFrance]

I don't think I recall reading about the spin putt analogy to get to the "tuck" position during the reach back at 20 seconds in the "Dgl - truth about the arm" BW video. That's an easy way to think about it.