Preserve 18-hole @ Edora Park, Fort Collins, CO

[tmahan]

Done.

 

[ZAMson]

just shared the link with 24 thousand people on DiscNation's facebook... let's hope the sigs start rolling in!!

 

[ZAMson]

about 60 sigs in 15 minutes

 

[Three Putt]

I remember discussing this basic issue with Ed Headrick 15 or 16 years ago.

The problem is multi-use land. Originally in park master plans you had open space, but you got into silly arguments about putting pavilions and horeshoe pits in open space, which technically violates your master plan since nothing is supposed to go in open space. So a lot of places classified the land as "multi-use" and that gave you more freedom to do stuff and not go against your master plan.

Ed tried to get courses in wooded areas so there wasn't so much conflict with other users, but he was trying to sell pole holes for a living and sometimes you ended up using multi-use land that was more open. The danger that he saw was that in the woods if a conflict came to a head it would be with hikers or mountain bikers and you would end up with "small special interest group VS small special interest group." There you have at least a 50-50 shot. In the more open areas you would have conflict with family picnics and what not and end up with "general population VS small special interest group" and we have no way of winning that battle.

As time went on and more and more people started designing courses, there was less of an effort made to avoid multi-use areas. Parks and rec guys don't understand disc golf, don't get how far the discs fly, and don't understand why you need a dedicated space for the activity to be safe. They are also used to abusing the multi-use designation to cram whatever they please into their parks. They were more than happy to green-light disc golf holes in places that created conflicts that they didn't understand, and the disc golfers just wanted the golf holes no matter what. The result is that probably now over 75% of courses are on public multi-use land.

The problem was pretty benign when the sport was small and you had courses getting 50 visits a day. Now the more popular courses can easily get 50 visits an hour from 10am-dusk on the weekend. That amount of visits overwhelms the multi-use land and creates the "general population VS small special interest group" problem Ed was worried about 15 years ago. Edora Park could be the tip of the iceberg. There are a lot of courses that you can make a valid argument against based on the idea that the sport requires dedicated land that the existing courses are inappropriate use of multi-use land.

It's hard to see that side of the issue if you are just a disc golfer, though. I've played a lot of courses that just simply should never have been installed given how poorly they integrate into the park, but when I mention that to other disc golfers they just stare at me. They don't care, they just want to play golf.

Of course I've never been to Edora and have no idea how much conflict there is there. In general I can see the problem from a parks and recreation viewpoint, though.

 

[captainobvious99]

Signed. #457ish... Good luck!

 

[roadtrip]

Signed. Just posting to put this back on the DGCR homepage during peak slack-at-work hours.

 

[denny ritner]

The problem is multi-use land. Originally in park master plans you had open space, but you got into silly arguments about putting pavilions and horeshoe pits in open space, which technically violates your master plan since nothing is supposed to go in open space. So a lot of places classified the land as "multi-use" and that gave you more freedom to do stuff and not go against your master plan . . .

It's hard to see that side of the issue if you are just a disc golfer, though. I've played a lot of courses that just simply should never have been installed given how poorly they integrate into the park, but when I mention that to other disc golfers they just stare at me. They don't care, they just want to play golf.

Of course I've never been to Edora and have no idea how much conflict there is there. In general I can see the problem from a parks and recreation viewpoint, though.

Three Putt makes several good points. I have played Edora and found it to have several significant safety issues, particularly in light of the large volume of players it receives. With discs getting faster and faster and volume of play continuing to increase, safety on multi-use properties is poised to be a topic of many discussions as many courses are re-evaluated.

Edora Park certainly has a lot of history hosting touring players, being the home course of the likes of Scott Stokely and Mike Randolph, and introducing thousands of CSU students to the sport of disc golf. It's easy to see how many will want to protect the legacy. It is incumbent upon disc golfers in any public shared-use scenario to remember that safety trumps other concerns.

I DO believe that a solution could be found for Edora Park that doesn't involve removing 9 holes. I think this course is a prime candidate for a "historic" designation. This would include a re-design to a "superclass-only" course and new signage that reflects both these aspects. I'd be strongly in favor of a pdga-subsidized program that helps defray costs of new signage and creates awareness across the disc golf community that respecting the "superclass-only" designation will help preserve the existence of these courses and good will in the community that may result in additional single-use courses being installed.

 

[tarel]

I am i reading this right, the town is spending $135,000 on a new disc golf course and the old one is being reduced?.

 

[Paulie]

518 now

 

[scarpfish]

U got my sig #313

#340. Done. Good luck!

Signed. #457ish... Good luck!

518 now

Do you guys really think this is going to help? I mean, even if they get 10,000 signatures, what does it matter? The authorities in Ft. Collins I'm sure have had e-petitions in the past, and probably would give this one the same credence, that they have all the others, virtually none, because they take little effort to draw up, to sign, and often contain signatures of people who have no serious interest in matter at hand, and only signed because someone on an online forum asked them to.

I am i reading this right, the town is spending $135,000 on a new disc golf course and the old one is being reduced?.

I would suspect the great majority of that $135K went into trees and shrubbery which will become the new course's obstacles, and not baskets, signs and tee pads. I'm sure non-DG playing residents of FC who have heard about that probably grimmaced about it a little bit.

That's also something that is going to make saving 9 holes at Edora an uphill battle.

One thing that I do know is that efforts by people who use the course, especially by people who live, work, shop, frequently visit, and hence pay taxes in Ft. Collins are going to have way more sway to save the course than signatures on an e-petition is.

Does the OP have the mailing address to the Ft. Collins city council or parks department by chance? Or can they notify folks here of when the next meeting is to discuss the issue? To me, those sort of things would persuade them more if they started seeing some pen and paper contributions showing up.

 

[mashnut]

It would also likely help for the city council to hear from folks who travel from surrounding areas to play there, spending money in the local economy.

 

[ZAMson]

Do you guys really think this is going to help?

you've spent significant time trying to dissuade people from expressing interesting in saving a disc golf course. the petition will help more, imo. it won't make or break their campaign, but it won't hurt.

 

[Skywalker-NOCO]

You guys are amazing! Well over 500 signatures in one day! This is a lot more support than I ever could have hoped for. A couple people have brought up good points: namely, that the online petition may not do any good because there are a lot of out-of-state signers, and there is a new course going in west of town so, why are we even trying to save Edora Park.

Well, first of all we have a paper petition that we are collecting real signatures on around town. I will be meeting with both the head of the Parks Planning Dept. and the City Manager sometime in the next month. We hope to present both the physical petition and the online petition at the Fort Collins City Council meeting Tuesday, Feb. 7. If anyone is in Fort Collins and would like to attend, please do so.

Secondly, I hope I speak for most disc golfers when I say you can never have too many great 18-hole courses. But the real issue is that the new Hughes Stadium course will not be a tournament-level course until the trees start to grow in - minimum 5 years, probably more like 10. The city wants to close half of Edora now, before the Hughes course is ready. We usually hold 2 or 3 PDGA-sanctioned tournaments on Edora every year and we wouldn't be able to do that for the better part of a decade if the downsizing goes through.

So, we have to try, even if the effort turns out to be futile, which I don't think will be the case. Every signature counts. Please keep forwarding the petition! I'll try to post some pictures of the beautiful Edora Park course soon.

Luc

 

[Three Putt]

I DO believe that a solution could be found for Edora Park that doesn't involve removing 9 holes. I think this course is a prime candidate for a "historic" designation. This would include a re-design to a "superclass-only" course and new signage that reflects both these aspects. I'd be strongly in favor of a pdga-subsidized program that helps defray costs of new signage and creates awareness across the disc golf community that respecting the "superclass-only" designation will help preserve the existence of these courses and good will in the community that may result in additional single-use courses being installed.

I was surprised how poorly the Superclass idea went over in a few places with old 4,000' courses. To me it seemed like a great idea to ensure a future for those courses, since otherwise they are basically obsolete. A lot of disc golfers don't like lids, though. Maybe a "Roc-only" designation would work better?

 

[Skywalker-NOCO]

Here are a few pictures at Edora I took a while back. Sorry I don't have any better ones - I'll get out there tomorrow and snap a few while I'm playing.

The course is in a beautifully maintained park, with long teeboxes, lots of fully-developed trees and a great mix of wide-open long shots and tight, technical drives. It's one of the best courses I've ever played and I'm not just saying that because it's in my hometown

 

[Skywalker-NOCO]

Let me also add that our proposal to the city includes several alternatives to reducing the number of holes at Edora, that help with the safety issues from having a disc course in a public park. We are offering to conduct safety seminars, to instruct new players never to throw while pedestrians are present, among other rules. We are offering to buy new signs that list safety rules, as well. And we are discussing an alternate layout, that would keep 18 holes on the course but change some of the most dangerous holes to areas of the park that are clear of sidewalks, parking lots, etc.

 

[Three Putt]

You guys are amazing! Well over 500 signatures in one day! This is a lot more support than I ever could have hoped for. A couple people have brought up good points: namely, that the online petition may not do any good because there are a lot of out-of-state signers, and there is a new course going in west of town so, why are we even trying to save Edora Park.

Well, first of all we have a paper petition that we are collecting real signatures on around town. I will be meeting with both the head of the Parks Planning Dept. and the City Manager sometime in the next month. We hope to present both the physical petition and the online petition at the Fort Collins City Council meeting Tuesday, Feb. 7. If anyone is in Fort Collins and would like to attend, please do so.

Secondly, I hope I speak for most disc golfers when I say you can never have too many great 18-hole courses. But the real issue is that the new Hughes Stadium course will not be a tournament-level course until the trees start to grow in - minimum 5 years, probably more like 10. The city wants to close half of Edora now, before the Hughes course is ready. We usually hold 2 or 3 PDGA-sanctioned tournaments on Edora every year and we wouldn't be able to do that for the better part of a decade if the downsizing goes through.

So, we have to try, even if the effort turns out to be futile, which I don't think will be the case. Every signature counts. Please keep forwarding the petition! I'll try to post some pictures of the beautiful Edora Park course soon.

Luc

I'm not trying to be a jerk, because I do hope you are successful. It just seems like a lot of politicking went on before this that resulted in Bill Wright being involved in a $135,000 course project that appears to be the trade-off for the Edora closure. Was your club shut out of these decisions? I mean, the new course is opening so this didn't happen last week. These decisions would have been made quite a while ago. Did this just get sprung on you?

 

[Skywalker-NOCO]

The city offered to build the new course because a $75,000 grant was awarded to Fort Collins by Great Outdoors Colorado (money comes from sales of Colorado Lottery tickets, among other places.)

Bill Wright was the contact for the city as far as the layout of the new course, getting baskets, etc. NCDGC (our disc golf club) wasn't heavily involved in this process which is fine with us - Bill is a great guy with an excellent eye for course design, and he has been the ambassador for disc golf in northern Colorado for 20+ years.

The problems came up when they decided to remove half of the holes at Edora - I believe it was sometime in September, well after the new course was already planned and paid for. It seemed to us like the city was using the new course as an excuse to downsize Edora, not as a planned trade-off.

No matter the motivation of the city, we feel like we have to do everything in our power to keep 18 holes at Edora. Thank you again for your support.

 

[freakinwizzz]

signed!

 

[scarpfish]

you've spent significant time trying to dissuade people from expressing interesting in saving a disc golf course.

No, I've spent significant time trying to dissuade people from engaging in a form of social "activism" which requires little legwork on the part of the people starting it, and even less from the people who sign it. Time and effort spent doing stuff like that leads to meaningless feel gooderism, and quite possibly dissaudes people from doing something that might actually have teeth, like say, volunteer to distribute a real petition, or write a letter, or go to a city council meeting.

the petition will help more, imo.

No it will not. It will quite possibly help them get laughed out of the room, which if I were in a position of power, is exactly what I would do to anyone who presented an e-petition to me. Unless of course those folks had a more persuasive means of expressing their concern in a manner that convinced me they were serious and determined, and willing to vote me out if they didn't get their way.

it won't make or break their campaign, but it won't hurt.

It will send a message to the powers that be that most of the people involved in the petition didn't want to do anything that involved them getting up from their computer. I don't exactly call that help.