Rules question: Unplayable Lie

[mmunter]

So I know that everyone on this board loves thinking and about and debating nit-picky rules questions as well as I do, so I figured that I would throw this one out there. Here is the quote from the rule book:

803.06 Unplayable Lie
A player may declare his or her lie to be an unplayable lie. The player is the sole judge as to whether the lie is unplayable. The unplayable lie may be relocated to a new lie that is: (1) No closer to the hole, on the line of play and within five meters of the unplayable lie; or (2) The previous lie as evidenced by the marker disc or, if the marker disc has been moved, from an approximate lie as agreed to by the majority of the group or an official. The original throw plus one penalty throw are counted in the player's score.

I interpret this rule as pretty much giving me a mulligan with a one stroke penalty whenever I feel like it. Suppose I have a 20 foot putt, but right behind the basket is an extremely steep ravine full of small trees and brush. I doink my putt and get an unlucky roll all the way down the ravine. Looking at my disc, I know that it will take me two tosses to get back to the green, and then one putt to hole out.

Can I save myself one stroke (assuming I make the putt by) calling my lie and re-putting from 20 ft?

 

[mashnut]

Yes.

 

[ERicJ]

I interpret this rule as pretty much giving me a mulligan with a one stroke penalty whenever I feel like it.

Essentially yes. But be careful of the terminology "mulligan" as a lot of times that has the connotation that you get a "do over" for free. I.e. the original throw doesn't count towards your score. If you use that definition of a "mulligan" then the Unplayable lie rule is like a mulligan with a two stroke penalty.

 

[scarpfish]

I interpret this rule as pretty much giving me a mulligan with a one stroke penalty whenever I feel like it.

Yeah you could do that, but the number of situations in which it would be practical is largely limited to something akin to the scenario you gave, where you get negative distance from the pin due to a roll away. You're not going to find yourself in it very often.

You really only want to declare an unplayable lie when there is absolutely no hope and its cheaper to take the penalty from the previous lie than try to play it out from whatever mess you threw your disc into.

 

[TxDiscGolfBoy]

Though - if I might add - calling a lie "unplayable" and taking that said "mulligan"-so to speak - just because you have the ability to make that 20 putt as opposed to the shot that went downhill, is a call from a disc golfer that I would prefer not to be on my card. If you really can't play the shot because the disc is trully unplayable, then cool, but any other reason to retake the 20 putt, IMO, is unsportsmanlike conduct. Not saying you're the type, but it almost seems that it's a questions of "can I use the rules to my advantange this way without getting in trouble?"

If you screwed on a shot, you're screwed on a shot, that's disc golf. And if it's trully unplayable, yeah, move it, or reshoot with the stroke.

I personally, when a lie is unplayable, call everyone on my card and say "is this all right with you guys? Fair enough?" when remarking my lie and don't move the disc, nor put a marker down, untill atleast one person on my card has seen that my disc is, again, truly unplayable.

And I think that asking questions like that, and getting the "card" involved in the decision, really shows to the other players that you do care about having a goold, clean, FAIR round.

(the Disc Golf Gods are watching.....ALWAYS!!!)

 

[ERicJ]

Though - if I might add - calling a lie "unplayable" and taking that said "mulligan"-so to speak - just because you have the ability to make that 20 putt as opposed to the shot that went downhill, is a call from a disc golfer that I would prefer not to be on my card. If you really can't play the shot because the disc is trully unplayable, then cool, but any other reason to retake the 20 putt, IMO, is unsportsmanlike conduct. Not saying you're the type, but it almost seems that it's a questions of "can I use the rules to my advantange this way without getting in trouble?"

If you screwed on a shot, you're screwed on a shot, that's disc golf. And if it's trully unplayable, yeah, move it, or reshoot with the stroke.

I personally, when a lie is unplayable, call everyone on my card and say "is this all right with you guys? Fair enough?" when remarking my lie and don't move the disc, nor put a marker down, untill atleast one person on my card has seen that my disc is, again, truly unplayable.

And I think that asking questions like that, and getting the "card" involved in the decision, really shows to the other players that you do care about having a goold, clean, FAIR round.

(the Disc Golf Gods are watching.....ALWAYS!!!)

Interesting. So do you not use any of the other rules to your advantage?

I'd guess that ~95% of the time tournament players unnecessarily mark their lie with a mini to get ~10" closer on a putt. Is that unsportsmanlike?

 

[Lewis]

IMO, using the unplayable lie rule is a more dramatic tactic than using a mini. That's why it begins to seem unsportsmanlike to use it very much, though I struggle to imagine many situations where you would get an advantage by giving yourself a penalty stroke. How often does your throw leave you more than another throw further from the basket than you were? If so, you got hosed big-time by something and deserve a little mercy.

 

[DavidSauls]

Strategically, calling a lie unplayable would only help if throwing from there won't get you to a better lie than your previous lie.

It's the player's choice, not the group's.....but if it's not really unplayable, then in addition to the penalty stroke you get derision from the rest of the group.

 

[TheStray]

I would say no you cannot because you are essentially moving your lie "closer to the hole". I just don't know how you could stay "on the line of play" without moving it closer to the basket since you overthrew the basket.

This happened to me but my disc was stuck in some vetch on the side of the ravine. I couldn't stand where the lie was so after thinking about it the group said I could stand at the bottom of the ravine and place my hand as the point of contact just behind the lie and throw toward the basket without a penalty. It worked for me and was agreed to by the majority.

 

[Kwick]

I would say no you cannot because you are essentially moving your lie "closer to the hole". I just don't know how you could stay "on the line of play" without moving it closer to the basket since you overthrew the basket.
.

the second option is "or (2) The previous lie as evidenced by the marker disc"

 

[mashnut]

If someone on my card did this, I would have absolutely no issue with it, it's within the rules which don't state any kind of reason necessary to call an unplayable lie. I've heard several people say it should just be renamed to 'undesirable lie', but either way it's within the rules.

 

[Brall]

I've heard several people say it should just be renamed to 'undesirable lie', but either way it's within the rules.

this would certainly make the rule easier to understand and remove much of the argument.

 

[Cgkdisc]

It was called "Unsafe Lie" at one time which was even more trouble.

 

[ERicJ]

IMO, using the unplayable lie rule is a more dramatic tactic than using a mini. That's why it begins to seem unsportsmanlike to use it very much

But "unplayable lie", when utilized, is a rule that that comes at a cost: you take the previous throw and the penalty stroke.

Marking your lie with a mini to gain an ~10" advantage on a putt goes completely against the "play it where it lies" philosophy, it's easy to do, and costs you nothing. Is that not a more dramatic violation of the spirit of the game?

Playing devil's advocate there...

Personally, I'm a believer in knowing the rules, playing by the rules, and using those rules to your advantage where you can.

 

[NothinButChing]

may use that rule interpretation to my advantage

 

[cydisc]

Marking your lie with a mini to gain an ~10" advantage on a putt goes completely against the "play it where it lies" philosophy, it's easy to do, and costs you nothing. Is that not a more dramatic violation of the spirit of the game?

I'm confused how this is somehow not playing it where it lies.

 

[peabody]

It rolls down the hill and the lie sucks. Let's say that was the third shot and par is four. If you throw from the original lie then there is no chance to par the hole. (You are throwing 5) If you are throwing from way down the hill you still have a chance of paring the hole. I would rather have the chance of the par and not the chance at a double bogey if you miss the original 20 footer.

 

[U_NICED_ME]

What do I not understand? You have the option to say, you know what, I just want to go back to where I was before instead of being at the bottom of the hill and take a stroke?

 

[ERicJ]

I'm confused how this is somehow not playing it where it lies.

Because the act of marking your lie with a mini gains you ~10" closer to the basket.

 

[U_NICED_ME]

I'm confused how this is somehow not playing it where it lies.

I'm confused in general, I thought the rule was this:

I throw a shot, I'm in a meaty briar patch...I say, you know what, I can't play from there.

Staying in the line of play, I can move back UP TO 5 meters and throw, but I take one penalty stroke.