Scoring Procedures

[BillFleming]

Yes, a TD CAN require Live Scoring.

PDGA Competition Manual 1.05.G

The Tournament Director must provide two scorecards to each group, to be kept independently of one another. These scorecards may be of the same medium or of different media. The two scorecards must be reconciled by the group and submitted by whichever method the Tournament Director has designated as the official scoring method for the tournament.

By telling the group they must use (for example) PDGA Live Scoring as the official scorecard and uDisc as the backup, that meets the first part (providing two scorecards). And it meets the last part: ....the Tournament Director has designated as the official scoring method for the tournament.

I believe the TD should put the scoring requirement into the tournament sign-up information so players can download the appropriate apps in advance. At this year's Memorial, PDGA Live scoring was the official method with uDisc as backup...some players were downloading one or both of the apps prior to their tee time. If there won't be paper scorecards as an option for the backup, that also should be announced on the registration page.....

Tournament Scoring Information:
Official: PDGA Live Scoring
Backup: uDisc Live Scoring
NO PAPER SCORECARDS WILL BE PROVIDED.

 

[Muddyboots]

Why would it exist if not to be the "official" scoring? Your "request" can be reversed- why would you assume it cannot be official based on being optional?

At this point I have about 1 group per 5 events that can't handle Live Scoring and they quite frankly piss me off. It never has anything to do with items one or 2 on your list- it is always number 3. The only reason not to use it is if you are in a signal free area of which there are not a whole lot at this point.

I was a naysayer at first on Live Scoring. It has proven itself however to be efficient, a huge work saver on the TD end, and it generates all sorts of cool things like being able to watch scores in almost real time and real hole scoring data without having to go back and extract it from scorecards. It just requires that you as a TD get used to it.

We agree on most of these things, and your perspective as a VERY experienced TD is undeniable. However, for many reasons, personal and practical in nature, I'd rather keep physical (paper) score than digital. Reliability and accountability being the most prevalent. I have zero issues with someone else keeping electronic score, but a real issue with TDs not making paper cards available as a backup option, every round. The first 3 tournaments I played in with LS (albeit run by newer TDs) experienced delays and poor setup/card organization. With a paper card we could have eliminated those problems.

 

[biscoe]

We agree on most of these things, and your perspective as a VERY experienced TD is undeniable. However, for many reasons, personal and practical in nature, I'd rather keep physical (paper) score than digital. Reliability and accountability being the most prevalent. I have zero issues with someone else keeping electronic score, but a real issue with TDs not making paper cards available as a backup option, every round. The first 3 tournaments I played in with LS (albeit run by newer TDs) experienced delays and poor setup/card organization. With a paper card we could have eliminated those problems.

My guess is those TD's would have found another way to generate delays had the scorecards been paper. It needs to be more difficult to become a TD IMO. For a number of years everything the PDGA has done has focused almost solely on bringing in more people. We give ratings based on teensy weensy amounts of propagators and allow pretty much anyone to be a propagator. We make it super easy to become a TD. We expect no rules knowledge of players. we bribe amateur players to play. Now that the goal of getting a ton of players into the fold is being achieved perhaps it is time to tighten up on such things. Disc golf has had such an inferiority complex for so long... we have acted as if any little difficulty will be enough to drive off a new player without paying any attention to how pretty much all other sports do things.

More on topic, your use of the word "rather" indicates a preference rather than a need. I have paper cards available as backup for all events anyway but if you and 3 other guys of a like mindset are in a group and insist on forcing me to do the extra work don't expect me to be happy about it.

 

[Steve West]

Yes, a TD CAN require Live Scoring.

PDGA Competition Manual 1.05.G


By telling the group they must use (for example) PDGA Live Scoring as the official scorecard and uDisc as the backup, that meets the first part (providing two scorecards).

But, if the TD tells me I need to use PDGA Live Scoring on my phone, and I don't have a phone, and they don't loan me a phone, have they really provided me with a scorecard?

 

[Chains Bailey]

Yes, a TD CAN require Live Scoring.

PDGA Competition Manual 1.05.G


By telling the group they must use (for example) PDGA Live Scoring as the official scorecard and uDisc as the backup, that meets the first part (providing two scorecards). And it meets the last part: ....the Tournament Director has designated as the official scoring method for the tournament.

I believe the TD should put the scoring requirement into the tournament sign-up information so players can download the appropriate apps in advance. At this year's Memorial, PDGA Live scoring was the official method with uDisc as backup...some players were downloading one or both of the apps prior to their tee time. If there won't be paper scorecards as an option for the backup, that also should be announced on the registration page.....

Tournament Scoring Information:
Official: PDGA Live Scoring
Backup: uDisc Live Scoring
NO PAPER SCORECARDS WILL BE PROVIDED.

I disagree - I do not believe a TD can force anyone to use an optional scoring method.

I, also, do not believe that a TD can REQUIRE a player to own or use a phone (Tablet/Laptop...).

Again, I love Live Scoring as a TD.

At the same time, no TD will force me to download UDisc (Or Live Scoring) and use it at a PDGA event. They will receive a paper scorecard from me if they attempt to do so. I simply CAN NOT use either since I do not have a "Hot Spot" for my phone. If the TD wants to pay for my data upgrade, I am all in.

The above is another reason I do not think TDs can force digital scoring at this time.

Until I read something mandated by the PDGA, it is optional and players can simply opt out.

 

[Chains Bailey]

Just a side note:

Knowing that how overly pragmatic I am being is pissing off Biscoe, is just an additional bonus.

 

[biscoe]

Just a side note:

Knowing that how overly pragmatic I am being is pissing off Biscoe, is just an additional bonus.

pragmatic, dogmatic... your choice.

 

[BillFleming]

I disagree - I do not believe a TD can force anyone to use an optional scoring method.

What do you mean by "optional" scoring method. All methods are optional, the rule says "same media or different media". It doesn't say paper is the official and electronic is optional. So whatever the TD says is official is official.

I, also, do not believe that a TD can REQUIRE a player to own or use a phone (Tablet/Laptop...).

No, but someone in the group probably has a phone and can download the app.

I understand the argument about players not wanting to use an electronic device to keep score....I also believe the TD should put in the About/Registration information what type of scoring will be done - then players have the choice to not play if electronic scoring is done and they are 'against' that.

But....the last sentence of 1.05.G of the Competion Manual (I believe) keeps players from choosing how they will keep their official score...

The two scorecards must be reconciled by the group and submitted by whichever method the Tournament Director has designated as the official scoring method for the tournament.

. Submitted by whichever method the TD has designated as the official scoring method. So if the TD says the official scoring method is PDGA Live Scoring, and a group turns in a paper scorecard....I believe that is a disqualification as they have not turned in the "official scoring method" and therefore, haven't officially turned in a score.

That said, I also see in this time of 'converting' to electronic scoring, that some TDs are giving the option for paper to be the official method if no one in the group wants to do the electronic scoring.

 

[BillFleming]

But, if the TD tells me I need to use PDGA Live Scoring on my phone, and I don't have a phone, and they don't loan me a phone, have they really provided me with a scorecard?

The issue is with the last line of 1.05.G.

submitted by whichever method the Tournament Director has designated as the official scoring method for the tournament.

Nowhere in 1.05.G does it say that players can ignore what the TD picks as the official scoring method. But it does say at the end that the scores must be submitted by the method the TD designated as the official one. So if the TD says PDGA Live Scoring is official and you turn in a paper copy - officially you have not turned in a scorecard and could be DQ'd.

With electronic scoring becoming more prevalent, I think 1.05.G. needs reviewed and re-worded for how to handle when a group 'refuses' to use electronic scoring and a TD has made that the official scoring method.

One solution I saw at a tournament, had to with the last sentence of 1.05.G, was that the group kept score on two papercards that they provided, then at the end, they got someone to enter their scores into Live Scoring for the official submission.

 

[Steve West]

The issue is with the last line of 1.05.G
....

I was making the point that perhaps we should change the wording so that it does not seem to require that TDs hand out smart phones. However, to your point, if the TD makes at least one phone (plus a volunteer millennial or younger) available for any player to poke in their scores after the round, perhaps that is enough to be considered "providing".

 

[BillFleming]

I was making the point that perhaps we should change the wording so that it does not seem to require that TDs hand out smart phones. However, to your point, if the TD makes at least one phone (plus a volunteer millennial or younger) available for any player to poke in their scores after the round, perhaps that is enough to be considered "providing".

Sorry, I misunderstood....and we both agree that rule needs to be re-worded. I have seen where a volunteer follows a group and does their live scoring, but that is mainly for the top pros since there are never enough volunteers to have one with each group.

As is, I think the rule pretty much works as: the TD can make anything the official method of scoring, BUT, it only really counts at the end of your round. You can use anything to keep score during the round, but at the end, you must 'copy' it over to the official scoring method prior to turning the scores in.