Scoring Procedures

[Chains Bailey]

Preface - As a TD, I love Live Scoring and the amount of work it alleviates after the completion of an event.

Yet, I still have concerns and questions...

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1.

I had a discussion / argument / dialogue with some other VA TDs at my last event.

The question I was asked is if paper scorecards are mandated (Required) at the event. My answer was yes.

This led to questions of how I would enforce that mandate. My answer was that if the players came in with no score at all, they would get par +4 for every hole. Therefore they better take a paper scorecard out with them and fill it out accordingly.

Make sense? Well, it did not to them either.


So, I will supply my reasoning and open it up for responses of what I am missing or not understanding - if that is the case.

- As far as I know, the PDGA has not yet required Live Scoring at events. (I do not believe they can or should ever require Live Scoring)
- At my events (All events really) Live Scoring is optional.
- I will forever provide/use a paper scorecard at my events.
- The paper scorecard serves three purposes: 1. To keep score for those who choose not to / are not capable of using Live Scoring. 2. As a backup in the event Live Scoring fails to work (Whether user error or some glitch in the Matrix' happens). 3. The PDGAs new rule of having two sources of scorekeeping is satisfied. (105.G)


Considering the above - If a group does not take the paper scorecard and the 1 in a zillion chance of Live Scoring failing happens and they can not recall their scores, the result is par +4 on every hole. (This way they can at least have a score and play he next round)

The above is some insight on why I mandate/require paper scorecards.

Fair? Make sense?

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2.

Next question:

As a TD, which is the Official Score method (Source) that you use - Live Scoring or paper scorecard?

I would prefer using the paper scorecard for this since Live Scoring is not required and all players do not use that method.

In practice I use BOTH - Live Scoring is used unless the group opted not to use it, then the paper scorecard becomes the Official Score.

I am hesitant to use the paper scorecard as the Official Score method (Source), because there are groups that choose not to even take the paper scorecard since Live Scoring is available.

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3.

In your opinion, should I be more consistent and to a degree strict about announcing/requiring/using the paper scorecard as the Official Scoring method (Source)?

It would simply only take a glance to make sure the optional and unofficial Live Scoring matches the paper scorecards. Doing that 18 times per round should not be too tall of a task.

*(I think I have answered this question while typing all of this out - it has become clear to me that I do need to just make a decision and be consistent with it from here on out = paper scorecards will be the Official Scoring method (Source))

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4.

So, somewhat, back to the original quandary.

I want to require the paper scorecards AND make them the Official Scoring method (Source). But what penalty, along PDGA guidelines, could I enforce upon a group that decides not to use the paper scorecard?



Hopefully this post makes some sense - I am terrible at being succinct and overthink the information I am trying to present.

Seems I have answered my own questions, excluding #4.

Either way - appreciate insight and opinions.

 

[krupicka]

Just specify which is the official scoring method, and players need to do so. Whichever is deemed official is subject to 808.F

 

[biscoe]

If you are using PDGA Live Scoring and not using it as the official scoring for the event what is the point?

Given that there is a signal for Live to begin with (seems to work the vast majority of places including PawPaw and Lake Marshall) there is no greater chance of Live failing than there is of a paper card getting dropped in a puddle, etc.

U-Disc is just as useful as paper as a backup.

I disliked the idea of electronic scoring to begin with. At this point players who can't/won't do it just piss me off.

In practice I use BOTH - Live Scoring is used unless the group opted not to use it, then the paper scorecard becomes the Official Score.

This is the correct answer.

 

[BillFleming]

808.B. can cause an issue with electronic scoring - and I think it needs reworded.

Players in the group keep score proportionally, unless a player or a scorekeeper volunteers to keep score more and that is acceptable to all players in the group.

Example...a group of four. One player starts live scoring and after 4 holes says "my turn is up - who's keeping score now?". The other players look at each other and say, I don't have the app...my phone is almost dead....I pay for data.....my phone is in the car..... Now what do you do? The first player didn't volunteer/agree to keep score for the whole round and no one else is stepping up to do it (may not have the ability to do it - no app, etc).

For that reason, paper copy as the primary/official version might be best. But PDGA and tournaments are trying to become environmental friendly and cut back on paper....also, electronic/live scoring lets other players and spectators know the scores/standings almost real-time.

Live scoring is here to stay....but, the issue with 'handing off the scoring' has to be figured out.

 

[uncle pennybags]

808.B. can cause an issue with electronic scoring - and I think it needs reworded.


Example...a group of four. One player starts live scoring and after 4 holes says "my turn is up - who's keeping score now?". The other players look at each other and say, I don't have the app...my phone is almost dead....I pay for data.....my phone is in the car..... Now what do you do? The first player didn't volunteer/agree to keep score for the whole round and no one else is stepping up to do it (may not have the ability to do it - no app, etc).

For that reason, paper copy as the primary/official version might be best. But PDGA and tournaments are trying to become environmental friendly and cut back on paper....also, electronic/live scoring lets other players and spectators know the scores/standings almost real-time.

Live scoring is here to stay....but, the issue with 'handing off the scoring' has to be figured out.

The few times I've done the electronic scoring I've just done it the whole round. For me it's way easier, and no math at the end. No issues reading someone else's handwriting no smudges from getting wet, ect. Plus it's my phone and not a scorecard that's been through someone else's hands!!

As a TD I'd imagine the speed gains from not having to go through all the scoercards would be huge! And is some of the groups have a long walk to TD central a scorecard submitted electronically could speed up the awards process too!

 

[Dcinmd]

808.B. can cause an issue with electronic scoring - and I think it needs reworded.


Example...a group of four. One player starts live scoring and after 4 holes says "my turn is up - who's keeping score now?". The other players look at each other and say, I don't have the app...my phone is almost dead....I pay for data.....my phone is in the car..... Now what do you do? The first player didn't volunteer/agree to keep score for the whole round and no one else is stepping up to do it (may not have the ability to do it - no app, etc).

For that reason, paper copy as the primary/official version might be best. But PDGA and tournaments are trying to become environmental friendly and cut back on paper....also, electronic/live scoring lets other players and spectators know the scores/standings almost real-time.

Live scoring is here to stay....but, the issue with 'handing off the scoring' has to be figured out.

With 2 to 3 card kept per group this rule is quickly become extinct.

If you wish to keep score you have two options. One bring a phone to keep live scoring. Or two bring a pencil and a scorecard.

Do you know how many pencils I have had to loan out at the first tee since members are not prepared to keep score in compliance with the rules? I am guessing around 50. And around half the time I get them back.

 

[ru4por]

I always encourage cards to keep an electronic score and a paper score as backup. I do play a couple courses with signal problems. I don't own a phone, so I nearly always offer to keep the paper score. I think two electronic scoring options presents inherent risk of both failing for the same reason.

 

[araytx]

Geez louise!

A lot of overthinking in my mind. I volunteered to keep live scoring, UDisc Live in this case, for one of the rounds at DDO. This is what the TD suggested, but we could do what the group wanted. --

It was a pro NT event, so the UDisc official scorekeeper was noted (me) and would keep that for the entire round. The group could keep the paper card themselves or allow volunteer #2 to keep it. They wanted to keep it themselves, so the TD suggested that they agree to have only one person keep it and then ALL FIVE people (the players and the UDisc scorekeeper, me) square up at the end of the round before leaving. Simple.

SO that's what I do in my regular tourney rounds. I ask we all agree to have one person will keep PDGA live (the whole round) and one keep the paper scorecard the whole round -- then the entire group (whether 3, 4 or 5) will square up the scores together before anyone leaves. By the way we have one local TD who puts it on their flyer. "This tournament will be scored using live scoring; be sure you have the necessary equipment to keep an electronic scorecard live for an entire round." It's on the rules sheet as well. If someone chooses not to, then he/she shouldn't have signed up knowing it was a requirement and accordingly has no room for argument about score-keeping. IF by some miracle more than 2 insist upon doing it, they get to. One is the OFFICIAL live scorer, one is the official paper scorer, and others can be unofficial paper or electronic. But everyone still squares up all the scores at end of round before anyone leaves.

 

[Noseph]

I've played in several events with Live scoring and a paper scorecard and they worked out just fine. One person keeps score on the app, and the other card mates rotate the card every x amount of holes, or one designated person has the card for the whole round. At the end of the round we go through each players scores hole by hole, and each player confirms their scores by their PDGA# or last name, and that works.

During a tournament I'll carry a fully charged power bank with me in case someone else wants to keep score and but is afraid of running out of juice.

 

[Zanguini]

Nothing wrong with one person keeping it on their phone and the other three or four passing around a paper card.

 

[BillFleming]

Nothing wrong with one person keeping it on their phone and the other three or four passing around a paper card.

Nobody has said it is wrong. The issue is in the rule. Consider a card with four players. One volunteers to do live scoring, but the others says they don't agree to that player doing it for the entire round; everyone needs to take a turn. Should the player then have to pass their phone to another player so they can keep score?

That's the issue I have with the rule as it is today. I 'think' others can take a turn if they have the same app, but not every one does.

For live scoring, I think the rule should be that one player volunteers to keep score and the others should follow on their devices to ensure the scores are correctly entered.

When I volunteer for live scoring, I let my cardmates know that I'll keep score for the entire round...and if they want to 'switch off', someone else will have to start.

 

[krupicka]

On the PDGA scoring app, if you want to take turns, the scorer simply logs out, and then another player on the card logs in. Simple as that. No need to pass a device around.

 

[Nova P]

I bring paper scorecards with me always. Even if someone else is doing online and someone else is doing "official" paper, I'm still doing my own paper one.

Trust issues, I've got 'em. . .

And honestly, it's worked out really well for me. One time (before COVID) the player with the scorecard lost it in the tall grass, so my backup saved the day. Another time Udisc Live pooped the bed on hole 18, so I was able to just turn in the paper one to the TD and he manually put the numbers in on a laptop. And I don't know how many times the presence of multiple redundant scorecards has caused a wily player to reconsider potential numerical shenanigans and decide not to do so today, but I'll bet it's at least once.

 

[Chains Bailey]

If you are using PDGA Live Scoring and not using it as the official scoring for the event what is the point?

PDGA Live Scoring is optional, not required.

Also, correct me if I am wrong, but the following are true:

1. Players/Groups can opt out of doing Live Scoring
2. Per the PDGA rules, a TD can NOT require Live Scoring, only offer it as an option

I love Live Scoring as a TD, but until the PDGA enables a TD to require it, it will always be optional and therefore the paper scorecards will have to remain the Official Scoring method/source.

I like the set-up now of Live Scoring and a paper scorecard, no complaints.

Just discussing, pointing out, that PDGA Live Scoring has become the norm while not being required or enabled to be mandated by the TD.

And no thanks on U-Disc - I try to keep my phone as app free as possible.

 

[Chains Bailey]

Just specify which is the official scoring method, and players need to do so. Whichever is deemed official is subject to 808.F

I do not believe you can designate PDGA Live Scoring as the official scoring method since it is optional.

Correct me if I am wrong and please cite the rule - not a challenge, a genuine request.

Another reason I created the OP is that there are other factors to consider if the PDGA ever did require the Live Scoring:

1. Different areas have different socio-economic levels
2. Different areas/age groups have differing computer/technological literacy
3. Some people simply do not want to use PDGA Live Scoring

 

[krupicka]

3. Some people simply do not want to use PDGA Live Scoring

Some players do not want the responsibility at all of having to take score on a scorecard. It doesn't matter if it is paper or digital.

 

[biscoe]

I do not believe you can designate PDGA Live Scoring as the official scoring method since it is optional.

Correct me if I am wrong and please cite the rule - not a challenge, a genuine request.

Another reason I created the OP is that there are other factors to consider if the PDGA ever did require the Live Scoring:

1. Different areas have different socio-economic levels
2. Different areas/age groups have differing computer/technological literacy
3. Some people simply do not want to use PDGA Live Scoring

Why would it exist if not to be the "official" scoring? Your "request" can be reversed- why would you assume it cannot be official based on being optional?

At this point I have about 1 group per 5 events that can't handle Live Scoring and they quite frankly piss me off. It never has anything to do with items one or 2 on your list- it is always number 3. The only reason not to use it is if you are in a signal free area of which there are not a whole lot at this point.

I was a naysayer at first on Live Scoring. It has proven itself however to be efficient, a huge work saver on the TD end, and it generates all sorts of cool things like being able to watch scores in almost real time and real hole scoring data without having to go back and extract it from scorecards. It just requires that you as a TD get used to it.

 

[BillFleming]

If you ask a touring pro to do something that "isn't required by the PDGA", they won't do it and they will complain (sometimes to the PDGA) if you require it.

At the Memorial this year, PDGA Live scoring was the required/official score and uDisc was the backup. We only had a very few paper score cards and groups that wanted paper, were told it wasn't the official score. No one complained, every group used PDGA live scoring and almost everyone used uDisc as the backup.

So, I believe the TD CAN require live scoring (PDGA or uDisc) to be the official score keeping item.

 

[c_a_miller]

Some players do not want the responsibility at all of having to take score on a scorecard. It doesn't matter if it is paper or digital.

This. If I had a dollar for every time in the paper scorecard era that a player adamantly refused to take his turn taking score because "i DoNt WaNt tO kNoW mY ScOre," I would have at least $15.

 

[Chains Bailey]

Why would it exist if not to be the "official" scoring? Your "request" can be reversed- why would you assume it cannot be official based on being optional?

At this point I have about 1 group per 5 events that can't handle Live Scoring and they quite frankly piss me off. It never has anything to do with items one or 2 on your list- it is always number 3. The only reason not to use it is if you are in a signal free area of which there are not a whole lot at this point.

I was a naysayer at first on Live Scoring. It has proven itself however to be efficient, a huge work saver on the TD end, and it generates all sorts of cool things like being able to watch scores in almost real time and real hole scoring data without having to go back and extract it from scorecards. It just requires that you as a TD get used to it.

First, as stated, I love it for the reasons you listed and more. Second, I am used to it and prefer it as a TD.

Again - can a TD per PDGA rules REQUIRE using Live Scoring? I do not think, at this point, we can. (If we can, then my concerns become moot)

The above is why I am going to require paper scorecards AND have those be the Official Scoring method/source.

In practice, this will equal using Live Scoring and simply looking at the paper scorecards to match.

My concern is that with Live Scoring, I have seen groups just disregard the paper scorecards and go on their way. This leaves me as the TD having to enforce some type of penalty for NOT using the Official Scoring method/source. (This also opens up on what the penalty is for not using TWO types of scoring per group - per PDGA rules))

What would that penalty be and under what PDGA rules would it fall?


My goals with this thread were to simplify procedures under the current rules.


I will contact Big Dog' to get some clarity, but thought it would be a worthwhile discussion.