Seekr Disc Golf YT - storefront in KC

[sidewinder22]

 

[Sewer bill]

Well now I almost feel bad for the guy.

 

[Kennets]

I, personally, understand the difference between personal attacks and idea attacks.


And that's kind of the whole point of the dunning kruger effect.
Your knowledge on the subject is limited to a point where you think you know all about the subject.

As in the quote you made there, that's the dunning kruger effect.
Though, it's also worth to note that sometimes when people discuss things people mistake "i'm absolutely right and you cannot tell me otherwise" with "this is me stating my opinion on the topic in a strongly worded way because i'm defending my view of the topic, change my mind."

I've had to change my opinion on a few things while studying form for the last 4 years. I've fallen victim to the "I think i know it all" a few times during my journey.

Now I've learned to question everything. Because the overall picture is becoming clearer the more I learn. The point of me sharing it as the dunning kruger is when you try and help these guys that are still learning, they are not interested. They are right, and you need to subscribe to THEIR method, cause.. They talk to sidewinder/seabass privately, and he says this or that.
Or whatever other excuse they want to make mentally on their side.

Its like "yeah, I talk to all those people also, and we dont always agree on things, but we still have open discussions and work through our idea's and learn from each other."


I duno.
I'm personally getting frustrated with a few things in the coaching world at the moment and disc golf. I'm fairly tempted to take a break.

Thanks for not taking any offense to my post! I should've explained myself some more. I'm aware if the definition of the dunning Kruger effect, i do believe it's a thing that becomes more and more relevant in today's society, any way. Sometimes I can't tell the difference between a person overestimating their knowledge on the subject or they just don't wanna admit they are wrong, even though they know they are or they just wanna spark a debate in a good way. (if that makes sense.. English, you know lol).

Even though i feel way educated on certain subjects, I'll always listen to people thoughts on the subject and even though I think they are wrong/off, I'll always take it into consideration. Some people in the DG world don't.. at all.

Reading your post and then my reply, i just realized that i just (poorly) reworded what you said lol.

 

[EllEstar]

This is a Public Service Announcement
about the Dunning-Kruger effect

What is the Dunning-Kruger effect?
The Dunning-Kruger effect is an observable and measurable cognitive bias where people of low skill, experience or knowledge in a certain field or topic overestimate their skill, experience or knowledge of the topic, as well as the inverse.
This effect is stronger when people try to compare themselves to a peer group rather than estimating their raw skill, experience or knowledge.

EXAMPLE 1
A person with 15% absolute skill in a field may estimate their skill to be 30%, a person with 50% skill may estimate their skill to be 55% and and a person with 85% skill may estimate it to be only 75%.

EXAMPLE 2
A group of 100 disc golfers throw into a net with a speed measuring device, but are not given the raw numbers. The bottom 10 performers may think they're a little above average compared to the rest, the middle 10 performers may think they're cracking the top 25 and the top 10 performers may think they're around 15th.

What the Dunning-Kruger effect is not
It is not Mount Ignorant where people with low skill, experience or knowledge think they are experts in a subject. People will, on average, rank themselves in relatively the right order, they will just severely misjudge the difference in ability between them and their peers. Low performers still estimate their performance to be below that of high performers.
It is not Mount Stupid where people of low intelligence are just too dumb to know that they're stupid. The Dunning-Kruger effect applies to specific skills or subjects, not general intelligence.


This is not directed at anyone in particular. The effect is often misunderstood and misapplied and I feel it is beneficial to know and understand how it has been observed.

 

[Brychanus]

What is the Dunning-Kruger effect?

The Wikipedia page does a serviceable job summarizing key points with visualizations. Unfortunately, Wikipedia can also sometimes gives readers the impression that a topic is definitive and complete. So if anyone wants to burn their day...

Usually when effects are important enough to be named in psychology, there is controversy and plenty of interesting work in the decades that follow. You can download the original 1999 article that started it all here.

Here's a somewhat old (2011) yet thorough chapter by Dunning. This one contains only a bit of technical content and should be accessible. He mixed in some nice real-world examples.

Academics get involved in developing and defending their own narratives against criticism, especially when it's a main focus on their career. Here's Dunning addressing criticisms of the effect last year.

 

[Kennets]

Thanks for the explanation ell! I absolutely forgot that it can go "both ways".

It's been years since i first read about it and to be fair, it's veey exciting and makes you wonder about yourself at times.

And thanks brychanus! Gonna have a look, not sure if my English will cut it, but I'll give it a go.

 

[Sheep]

Thanks for the explanation ell! I absolutely forgot that it can go "both ways".

It's been years since i first read about it and to be fair, it's veey exciting and makes you wonder about yourself at times.

And thanks brychanus! Gonna have a look, not sure if my English will cut it, but I'll give it a go.

The main basic point of the effect of it is that people generally over estimate their abilities and knowledge until they get to a certain point and realize they don't know as much as they think they know.

It's tough in todays society as people throw things around randomly to sound "cool."
And if anything, Everyone should know by now, with me at least, I'm not really hip on that.


But in a level of learning, you are not really an expert until you have more questions than answers. Because when you know enough to know what you dont know, you've finally hit the top of the curve. That's a visual representation of Dunning Kruger though. Which when you finally peak in your knowledge and stop overestimating your abilities because you've gotten passed the ego stage essentially to know you dont know things, vs pretending you know more than you do.

When you really understand the overall effect and approach studying and academics as a whole like this, it makes it SOOO much easier to learn as well and far far far faster.

Because for starters, you keep your mouth shut until you feel you've gained a LARGE grasp on the topic vs learning a little bit and assuming the rest without peer review, discussion or other things.

There is no better way, in my opinion, to learn something that to study it, ask questions and also apply it.

If you dont ever try and talk with peers about the subject, you'll put yourself in an echo chamber.
Which.. puts you on the front side of the curve. The part where you're vastly overestimating your abilities or knowledge in a subject.

 

[seedlings]

The main basic point of the effect of it is that people generally over estimate their abilities and knowledge until they get to a certain point and realize they don't know as much as they think they know.

It's tough in todays society as people throw things around randomly to sound "cool."
And if anything, Everyone should know by now, with me at least, I'm not really hip on that.


But in a level of learning, you are not really an expert until you have more questions than answers. Because when you know enough to know what you dont know, you've finally hit the top of the curve. That's a visual representation of Dunning Kruger though. Which when you finally peak in your knowledge and stop overestimating your abilities because you've gotten passed the ego stage essentially to know you dont know things, vs pretending you know more than you do.

When you really understand the overall effect and approach studying and academics as a whole like this, it makes it SOOO much easier to learn as well and far far far faster.

Because for starters, you keep your mouth shut until you feel you've gained a LARGE grasp on the topic vs learning a little bit and assuming the rest without peer review, discussion or other things.

There is no better way, in my opinion, to learn something that to study it, ask questions and also apply it.

If you dont ever try and talk with peers about the subject, you'll put yourself in an echo chamber.
Which.. puts you on the front side of the curve. The part where you're vastly overestimating your abilities or knowledge in a subject.

Another very good way to learn is to do a thing wrong a(t least a) few times. It's unfortunate that's my primary means.

 

[Sheep]

Another very good way to learn is to do a thing wrong a(t least a) few times. It's unfortunate that's my primary means.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with failing to learn.

The problem is when you're presenting yourself as an expert/teacher/resource and taking people along that journey with them as an expert, despite trying to discover your failures.

Tha.. That makes poor sense.

If you present yourself as an expert/teacher/resource, but have not gotten passed a lot of the failures and are trying to teach it, you're going to end up teaching bad things.

And that's my big complaint overall in a nutshell.

It's one thing if its a "come along with me on my journey" and a completly different thing of "i'm an expert, here is what you need to do even though i've not really done this much, but i'm going to teach you the idea of it before i fully understand it" only to find out that idea is.. well wrong. Which if you'd spent another 15 mins you could have confirmed you were gonna screw up.
ala, like squish the bug video's.
So many people fall for this trap.

Even Uli is teaching it in his program. wtf.?!

It's hard to get good without failing, because you need to fail to learn. But if you're in an echo chamber by choice with others, you'll never know you're failing.

It's one of the largest reasons I don't make video content. It's really really really easy to present bad information by pure accident.

While I feel very established on my philosophy as a whole, I'm still being blindsided with changes and ideas that improve my vision on the subject.

I'm currently failing misserably on the course to apply these concepts to improve myself. And its bad, but I fell into a bad form rut again because I tried to rush dumb things, again. Because at x time i could throw y far, and dont understand how with far better form i throw less far. hahaha