Cgkdisc
.:Hall of Fame Member:.
When neither are ideal design, it doesn't matter which is better.
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smaller greens?
- Thread starter mhulkman
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biscoe
* Ace Member *
Of course it matters which is better in a given spot (and it may be one thing in one spot and one thing in another). There is no such thing as "ideal design" to begin with. We do the best we can with what we have to work with and design is judged differently by every single individual who plays a hole. Are there principles which are better than others? Of course. In the end it all winds up as a combo of "Is it fun?" and "Is it fair?" to quote Harold yet again.
Cgkdisc
.:Hall of Fame Member:.
Exactly. Neither are fun nor fair. 50/50 chance for being stymied behind trees or taking a penalty, although I still might prefer the chance to get down in two from the trees versus the chance I can't make the putt from my OB mark for the same net score.
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Not sure what you mean by "where your pitch out would be". Where you would pitch out from, or pitch out to?
If O.B. is 20' from the basket, it's a penalty stroke and a 17' putt---not exciting, but not quite a gimme. It's a pleasant enough throw.
If an obstacle is there instead, large enough that there's no run at the basket, it's a 20' pitch to the base (boring) and a drop-in (boring). Two un-fun throws.
To me, anyway, if no one else.
So Im guessing some of you haters for smaller greens must suffer from accuracy and distance control envy, lol. Most designs are set up for the big arms to where harder=longer par 3's. For the majority of players one can throw the best tee shot of there life and never birdie a 400ft par 3 because they are still 80-120ft from the basket. So why not set the basket at 260ft so everyone can reach it but make it more technical by having part of the circle guarded by a tree or drop off? Now accuracy and/or distance control becomes part of the game altho the power throwers still have the advantage because they can throw a putter or mid range. So now if I throw an accurate/distance controlled tee shot Im rewarded with a birdie instead of a 100ft upshot while mr. big arm gets a wide open look from 40ft on the harder=longer hole, but this is fair and the mid size tree 15-20ft away guarding one side of the basket on a shorter hole is not? And really? OB is ok in the circle costing you an automatic stroke but a mid size tree 15-20ft from the basket that you can throw around, thru, under, or over is not ok?lol! I NEVER said tree wall, I NEVER said the branches would be brushing up against the basket, I NEVER said all 72 pin placements would be in tree jail. And this is NOT a forest course, the trees are very sporadic but the property does have some incredible elevation changes. So with this type of property I dont see an issue with a third to half of the holes having smaller greens to make it more challenging and to reward accuracy and distance control. The tee signs will show you where the trouble is and where the open areas are. This course will have a ton of variety as well, not just 18 baskets with trees 5ft away from them. 9 open tee shots, 9 shaped tee shots, 3 holes with NO trees but lots of elevation, 4 holes with huge drop offs near the basket, 5 short par 4's with technical upshots, in fact no 2 holes will be the same.
I dont buy into the randomness argument even tho we try hard to remove it as much as we can, its in EVERY sport. EVERY sport is considered a game of inches, I could give examples of random bad luck in every sport.
I dont buy into the randomness argument even tho we try hard to remove it as much as we can, its in EVERY sport. EVERY sport is considered a game of inches, I could give examples of random bad luck in every sport.
Cgkdisc
.:Hall of Fame Member:.
You're near the right track on this but consider for a course intended for serious competition: No stymie situations where players are completely blocked too near the pin, no OB too close to pin, and ideally, no additional randomness purposely added to the already fluky situations that exist naturally. Follow these tips for serious competition or do some of these things and make some recreational players happy. There's no such thing as a big or small green, just an accessible green area with some locations better to land than others, but not completely blocked for serious competition, nothing the equivalent of putting a brick near the hole on a ball golf green.
So why'd you ask our opinions, if you were already so convinced?
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I agree with most of this post, but I have a bit of an issue with OB inside the circle.
A good upshot, should usually result in a decent look at the basket, but I can live with a bit of randomness in that, an otherwise good approach might slide or roll wide or long, ending up under some brush, or skip behind a stand of trees....resulting in a tricky putt. It might be a low likelihood of success, but at least there's a chance... and for the most part, that chance is based on skill.
However OB in the circle means an othewise decent, but somewhat unfortunate, upshot necessarily earns a stroke, with no chance to save that stroke, regardless of your trick-shot putting capabilities.
I suppose it all depends on the nature of the OB. Placing a basket near a lake or stream can add something to a hole. I wouldn't claim the same holds true if you replace the water with asphalt. Strictly speaking, water doesn't play any differently than paved OB, but it doesn't feel the same.
Personally, I'd find it more acceptable if I took a penalty because my approach ended up in the water, rather than in the road. Same result, but doesn't leave the same impression.
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Interesting. I don't find much difference between water, asphalt, and manufactured OB, other than aesthetics---except where water also risks losing a disc.
But it starts with design; where the OB is in relation to the basket, and how far and by what route you will be throwing to the green. It should be where a well-thrown shot does not go OB (other than in rare freaky incidents)
There's a course near me that I like and think is pretty good; of 27 baskets, only one has a 10-meter circle free of trees, OB, or rollaway slopes. (I think it's there just to throw players off). 13 of them have OB somewhere in the circle, though for a good number of them, it's at least 25' from the basket.
Only 1 or 2 (depending on your putting skill) have OB so close that an OB is followed by a gimme putt. Otherwise, there's some pleasure in making comeback putt. Depending on how far you threw OB, making the comeback putt might save you a stroke; if the line is 25' away and your shot crossed it and landed 50' away, a comeback putt from OB is probably the same score as you'd have if it wasn't OB, and two-putted from 50'.
But it starts with design; where the OB is in relation to the basket, and how far and by what route you will be throwing to the green. It should be where a well-thrown shot does not go OB (other than in rare freaky incidents)
There's a course near me that I like and think is pretty good; of 27 baskets, only one has a 10-meter circle free of trees, OB, or rollaway slopes. (I think it's there just to throw players off). 13 of them have OB somewhere in the circle, though for a good number of them, it's at least 25' from the basket.
Only 1 or 2 (depending on your putting skill) have OB so close that an OB is followed by a gimme putt. Otherwise, there's some pleasure in making comeback putt. Depending on how far you threw OB, making the comeback putt might save you a stroke; if the line is 25' away and your shot crossed it and landed 50' away, a comeback putt from OB is probably the same score as you'd have if it wasn't OB, and two-putted from 50'.
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My own preferred well-thrown shot? Or, there just needs to be a shot that can avoid OB if well-thrown?
Say my well-thrown upshots always land 20 feet behind and to the right of the basket. If you put OB there, in theory, I could aim at a virtual basket which is 20 feet shorter and to the left. If I threw that shot well, I would avoid OB. But, that's not what I do when I make a "good" upshot.
Have you caused my well-thrown upshot to land OB?
If your "well-thrown" shot is the same on every hole, regardless of hole configuration, I can't help you. My well-thrown drives are different on different holes---my approaches, too, depending on the green. And it doesn't have to involve OB; it could involve trees, slopes, or even wind on a given day.
Cgkdisc
.:Hall of Fame Member:.
I think the point is that if the average accuracy of blue level throws from 200 feet is a scattergram of 30 feet radius, then it's not "fair" to have a 1-shot penalty element within that radius because that's where "good throws" can be expected to land. It's the best accuracy blue level players can achieve, especially considering changing wind patterns. OB if any should be outside that radius. If we know that average blue level accuracy is a 20 feet radius from 100 feet, then OB a little closer than 30 feet might be reasonable. However, from a "fairness" standpoint, I don't think having a 1-shot penalty is proportionally fair unless it's a really bad throw, not just an offline throw equivalent to barely landing in the rough.
But the center of that radius doesn't have to be the basket.
Cgkdisc
.:Hall of Fame Member:.
Why not, is a fundamental disagreement on the nature of the golf game, not just disc golf. Much longer topic.
thirtydirtybirds
Double Eagle Member
But it does from a rules standpoint. 10 meters determines the stance requirements. If the basket is 2 feet from the edge of this 30' "green" then you'll be jumping from the green some spots and not jumping from outside the green in others.
Unless you are referring to the "green" as a purely ornamental feature, in which case do whatever, as long as it's fair within the bounds of the rules
Unless you are referring to the "green" as a purely ornamental feature, in which case do whatever, as long as it's fair within the bounds of the rules
F. Howl
* Ace Member *
I agree. That blue level thrower needs to adjust that 30 foot landing zone left, right, short, or long to exclude the OB area if he wants to play smart golf. Otherwise he can run it, and take the risk.
Disc golf doesn't need strict uniformity of a flat circular green around the pin. Creative placement of the target sometimes makes a signature hole on the course, or creates an exciting run or layup decision.
We used to have a pin placement at a now defunct P2P, that was in an OB planter, 10 feet in diameter. (not during sanctioned events). I liked the drama of that hole....
Cgkdisc
.:Hall of Fame Member:.
My comments were specifically about situations where landing one inch either way results in a full shot penalty even close, if not in the appropriate landing area. Having incremental challenges on/around the green is perfectly acceptable, even preferred, if they don't immediately result in a penalty.
While I don't agree on a blanket basis, looks like the new rules will give us some more flexibility on this.
Cgkdisc
.:Hall of Fame Member:.
Relief areas for sure, or even better, buncrs, baby (but still need a waiver on those).
Yes. Wish we didn't need the waivers, but still like the options. I'd use more at Stoney Hill, if I were willing to trade off making an already-detailed rules sheet even worse, for the benefit of increased fairness. Or if we were hosting high-tier events, with higher stakes and a better caddy book.
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