[Drivers] Speed rating vs. WIND Question

[JNichols]

Hey all. When I started playing Disc Golf, almost 5 years ago, I lived in Salem, Oregon. I built a good bag of discs that worked for me. We moved to Seattle, Washington and that same bag worked well, with only the addition of a couple more utility discs for the trees. Neither place was really "Windy", though.

We have moved to the Phoenix area in Arizona and have been here for a few months now. I have come back to throwing after a almost 2 year hiatus. After throwing again for almost 2 months, my distance is coming back and I am starting to hit 350-360ft on full out drives again. So, I have a Question, especially for folks that Consistently play wind....

I have never been a thrower of HIGH SPEED Drivers. My biggest distance drivers were always 9-11 speed and usually fairly Understable (Beasts, Mambas, Sidewinders, Valkyries, etc.) My Distance right NOW is coming from MOSTLY Fairway Drivers in the 7-8 speed range (Maul, Underworld, Breakout). The Phoenix area has thrown me for a Loop because it is CONSTANTLY Windy here, compared to what I am used to. Generally, I am always throwing in a 5-15 mph sustained wind (depending on time of day), but lately I have been hitting 15-25 mph sustained wind with HUGE Gusts on some courses newer to me. I am NOT used to that....

What I am noticing is that even when I feel like I got a Great throw on a 7-8 speed Fairway driver in the Wind (Especially headwind), the disc just seems to have the Hardest time fighting through and getting distance. Even on LOW lines.

So, my Question. I understand the Speed ratings on discs Indicate their Ability to CUT THROUGH THE AIR. But, the Higher the Speed Rating, the Faster it needs to be thrown in order to achieve the "Advertised", or desired flight ratings. I don't have a Noodle arm, per se, but I am no McBeast, either. This is why I have avoided Higher Speed Discs.

What would y'all recommend as Headwind driver, Speed Wise, to cut through the wind?

I don't care for Uber Stable discs that much, FYI. I tend to Hyzer Flip stable to understable discs to get my desired flight, or throw FLAT. I am hitting 320-340 regularly with stable/understable fairway drivers and 350-360 on a good pull.

OH! I also throw Trilogy Brands now. Lat 64, Westside, DD.... I have also picked up some Renegades, a Trespass, Max Weight Bolts, and an Opto Air Havoc to try out, but haven't thrown them yet.

Thanks for reading the wall of text and thanks for your input!

 

[BirdieMachine]

The Trespass would be a good one into the wind for you I'd bet.

 

[kevdiv48]

An S or C-PD should do just fine. Stable enough to not flip in moderate winds, but still can go very far. Nice capitalization throughout the entire novel, too.

 

[ODRB]

An S or C-PD should do just fine. Stable enough to not flip in moderate winds, but still can go very far. Nice capitalization throughout the entire novel, too.

This. Both points.

 

[Questatement]

With head wind induced turn, only the turn is offset with a disc of the same speed which is more high speed stable. With head winds, there is still the added 'forward edge' friction from release to landing that typically only gets ahold of a disc at high speed and decreases steadily as the disc travels. This will cause the same speed disc to get less distance in a head wind, even though it flies the same path as a less stable disc without wind. To help decrease friction, avoid base plastic like the plague and use newer discs with less nicks and scratches if you are carrying one.

As far as increasing HSS, I disc up in speed before using a more HSS disc of the same speed because the increased speed alone will stabilize the disc AND offset some loss of distance from increased friction. My offset is a ratio of about 2 (speed) to 1 (increase in HSS) unless you're already throwing a 2.3 cm rim in which case, all you can do is go more stable.

 

[JNichols]

An S or C-PD should do just fine. Stable enough to not flip in moderate winds, but still can go very far. Nice capitalization throughout the entire novel, too.

Thank you and ThANk YOu. :clap:

 

[Hoss22]

I think that trespass is going to work out good for you. When I was maxing out at 380', I used the trespass as my go to distance driver. Feel of a speed 10, and distance of a speed 13. I had a max weight fuzion and lucid that I used for headwinds. Fuzion held up a bit better in wind mainly because of the PLH. But I could trust both to be thrown in 15-20 mph headwind with a slight hyzer flip to flat at 350-380'. Now the one bad thing is if you turn over on them and release with an anny, some of the trespasses won't want to come out of that anny and will track right most of the flight into the headwind. Once I started hitting 415'+ I moved to the world and get similar flight paths as when I was throwing 380' with a trespass.

 

[slowplastic]

If you're hitting those distances with fairways, then definitely get an SPD. It will be perfect for straight headwind shots. With a 350' fairway arm you have the ability to use a lot of faster discs that can handle the wind too.

In a headwind I would expect serious distance loss from fairways that depend on glide...they get slowed down a ton. And can flip. Go faster and more stable. SPD in headwind will be a Teebird in calm.

If you need full on distance in a headwind, you can use a disc that is faster and you can just barely get to turn in calm conditions. The headwind will give it a nice ride to the right, and a dependable fade to the left. It may be time for you to test out a mellower Destroyer (G star or less stable star?) or something like that, if you want to get longer headwind shots. For Trilogy stuff I use a VIP World for max distance headwinds, but I wouldn't recommend it for you being that it's way too big a jump in speed and stability. Sorry, my other recommendations were other brands.

Oh, and if you need a stable/OS mid for winds that's Trilogy, the Verdict is amazing.

 

[JNichols]

If you're hitting those distances with fairways, then definitely get an SPD. It will be perfect for straight headwind shots. With a 350' fairway arm you have the ability to use a lot of faster discs that can handle the wind too.

In a headwind I would expect serious distance loss from fairways that depend on glide...they get slowed down a ton. And can flip. Go faster and more stable. SPD in headwind will be a Teebird in calm.

If you need full on distance in a headwind, you can use a disc that is faster and you can just barely get to turn in calm conditions. The headwind will give it a nice ride to the right, and a dependable fade to the left. It may be time for you to test out a mellower Destroyer (G star or less stable star?) or something like that, if you want to get longer headwind shots. For Trilogy stuff I use a VIP World for max distance headwinds, but I wouldn't recommend it for you being that it's way too big a jump in speed and stability. Sorry, my other recommendations were other brands.

Oh, and if you need a stable/OS mid for winds that's Trilogy, the Verdict is amazing.

I have 3 Verdicts in my Bag. :thmbup: LOVE that disc!
Thank you for the info and Recommends, too! :clap:

 

[slowplastic]

I have 3 Verdicts in my Bag. :thmbup: LOVE that disc!
Thank you for the info and Recommends, too! :clap:

Nice, I look at the Verdict as a midrange PD in a way. A more neutral speed 5 mid (like a Buzzz or whatever) will get you more distance and glide, but won't be as reliable. The PD may not go as far as an understable speed 9/10 disc, but it will have the straight to fade flight path that is consistent. And it may take a bit more power, like the Verdict takes a bit more power than a Buzzz.

 

[JNichols]

After looking at the PD and it's rating numbers, I feel like my Westside Northmans fill that spot, already. And, I Love my Northmans. I carry 3 in different weights and my Max weight flies how the PD is described. Plus, the Northman is an amazing thumber disc, for me, between 220-250ft.

 

[ODRB]

With head wind induced turn, only the turn is offset with a disc of the same speed which is more high speed stable. With head winds, there is still the added 'forward edge' friction from release to landing that typically only gets ahold of a disc at high speed and decreases steadily as the disc travels. This will cause the same speed disc to get less distance in a head wind, even though it flies the same path as a less stable disc without wind. To help decrease friction, avoid base plastic like the plague and use newer discs with less nicks and scratches if you are carrying one.

As far as increasing HSS, I disc up in speed before using a more HSS disc of the same speed because the increased speed alone will stabilize the disc AND offset some loss of distance from increased friction. My offset is a ratio of about 2 (speed) to 1 (increase in HSS) unless you're already throwing a 2.3 cm rim in which case, all you can do is go more stable.

^ this is wisdom and truth.

After looking at the PD and it's rating numbers, I feel like my Westside Northmans fill that spot, already. And, I Love my Northmans. I carry 3 in different weights and my Max weight flies how the PD is described. Plus, the Northman is an amazing thumber disc, for me, between 220-250ft.

^ this is neither. A Northman is not a PD. Not even close.

 

[slowplastic]

After looking at the PD and it's rating numbers, I feel like my Westside Northmans fill that spot, already. And, I Love my Northmans. I carry 3 in different weights and my Max weight flies how the PD is described. Plus, the Northman is an amazing thumber disc, for me, between 220-250ft.

Does it have turn for you in calm conditions? And how far do you throw it?

If you're looking to get max D in the wind and you are happy with your control drivers going where you want, just too short, I'd look at stepping into the speed 12+ moderately OS class of discs so they'll hold on full power rips into the wind and carry farther.

If it was me looking for bigger drivers in the wind, from Trilogy, I would go with a World for max D and a Giant for headwind beef.

 

[JNichols]

^ this is wisdom and truth.



^ this is neither. A Northman is not a PD. Not even close.

It probably isn't. I appreciate you pointing that out. I am NOT going to a PD though. It may hurt my game, it may make me an Idiot, but I won't go to a PD. I am throwing Trilogy brands now. I will find Something in those brands that will do the job. NO OFFENSE Intended! Please don't take it the wrong way. There is a story behind this.

Does it have turn for you in calm conditions? And how far do you throw it?

If you're looking to get max D in the wind and you are happy with your control drivers going where you want, just too short, I'd look at stepping into the speed 12+ moderately OS class of discs so they'll hold on full power rips into the wind and carry farther.

If it was me looking for bigger drivers in the wind, from Trilogy, I would go with a World for max D and a Giant for headwind beef.

The World and Giant, Honestly scare the crap out of me. I KNOW in my heart I should not be throwing 14 speed discs. But, maybe I need to lose that mentality and get over myself....:doh:

 

[thePiRaTE]

Hey all. When I started playing Disc Golf, almost 5 years ago, I lived in Salem, Oregon. I built a good bag of discs that worked for me. We moved to Seattle, Washington and that same bag worked well, with only the addition of a couple more utility discs for the trees. Neither place was really "Windy", though.

We have moved to the Phoenix area in Arizona and have been here for a few months now. I have come back to throwing after a almost 2 year hiatus. After throwing again for almost 2 months, my distance is coming back and I am starting to hit 350-360ft on full out drives again. So, I have a Question, especially for folks that Consistently play wind....

I have never been a thrower of HIGH SPEED Drivers. My biggest distance drivers were always 9-11 speed and usually fairly Understable (Beasts, Mambas, Sidewinders, Valkyries, etc.) My Distance right NOW is coming from MOSTLY Fairway Drivers in the 7-8 speed range (Maul, Underworld, Breakout). The Phoenix area has thrown me for a Loop because it is CONSTANTLY Windy here, compared to what I am used to. Generally, I am always throwing in a 5-15 mph sustained wind (depending on time of day), but lately I have been hitting 15-25 mph sustained wind with HUGE Gusts on some courses newer to me. I am NOT used to that....

What I am noticing is that even when I feel like I got a Great throw on a 7-8 speed Fairway driver in the Wind (Especially headwind), the disc just seems to have the Hardest time fighting through and getting distance. Even on LOW lines.

So, my Question. I understand the Speed ratings on discs Indicate their Ability to CUT THROUGH THE AIR. But, the Higher the Speed Rating, the Faster it needs to be thrown in order to achieve the "Advertised", or desired flight ratings. I don't have a Noodle arm, per se, but I am no McBeast, either. This is why I have avoided Higher Speed Discs.

What would y'all recommend as Headwind driver, Speed Wise, to cut through the wind?

I don't care for Uber Stable discs that much, FYI. I tend to Hyzer Flip stable to understable discs to get my desired flight, or throw FLAT. I am hitting 320-340 regularly with stable/understable fairway drivers and 350-360 on a good pull.

OH! I also throw Trilogy Brands now. Lat 64, Westside, DD.... I have also picked up some Renegades, a Trespass, Max Weight Bolts, and an Opto Air Havoc to try out, but haven't thrown them yet.

Thanks for reading the wall of text and thanks for your input!

I read that all, thought about it, then got to the red text. I already had a disc in mind, so now you have to listen to me!

Tesla. Similar to a speed 10 star destroyer. Solid in wind, good D potential.

Ok, you can go now.

 

[slowplastic]

The World and Giant, Honestly scare the crap out of me. I KNOW in my heart I should not be throwing 14 speed discs. But, maybe I need to lose that mentality and get over myself....:doh:

Heh it totally depends on what you want out of the discs, and it sounds like you have very heavy wind. I agree it's a huge jump and probably not the first step, but where you'll likely end up eventually. For example, I throw fairways (speed 7ish) 350' comfortably and 375' on a good rip. So you can do 350', but I don't know if that's a comfortable/normal thing, or the upper edge of what you hit. With my distance the World is straight to fade for me in calm conditions, and in headwind I have to release with a mild hyzer, it will turn over and ride, and then have a dependable fade. This is perfect for this shot (and I don't trust my mellower Destroyers in this much wind, but I can throw them 30' further in calm). But I also need something that would be absolutely zero turn in headwind and will hold hyzers, which I use an XCal for, but if I were to use Trilogy I would likely throw a Giant for this.

It is pretty different to get used to this big of a rim and throwing discs this fast, so it's probably best to try something else in the 12ish range to see how it works for you and smooth into it to see how you do with it. But don't be scared of moving up if you are hitting 350' with fairway drivers and headwinds are giving you a problem. Believe me though, if you have the proper power to use faster discs they are very controllable when it's the hole for them.

Edit: Oh and 14 is just a number, it's fine if you can throw hard. They are not HSS = +1, neither is a Giant. But a Stilletto...that is 1!!!

 

[Snaques]

Based on your specs and preferences, I'd have to give my vote to the Trespass as well. It will not be your traditional wind fighter that will hold up to any wind without turning, but seeing that you currently throw pretty stable to understable stuff I'm sure it will provide you enough extra stability and speed to work in windy situations.

What comes to the PD recommendation, which is pretty spot on apart from the brand, I would recommend that you check out the new Westside Sampo which was this year's Trilogy Challenge disc. It should be more OS than the Trespass, but a bit slower as well so pretty close to a Thunderbird which again is pretty close to a PD.

I'm interested to hear what you ended up with so keep us posted.

 

[mattc]

I typically use 8-9 speed discs saint being my go to.
But I will often use a villian for my headwind driver.
(I am kind of a noodle arm)

 

[Dr.Smooth]

Lets back up here a little.

Problems with distance in headwinds?

Wind exgagerates any error in your technique. If you throw with more power than finesse you will need heavier discs to penetrate. Especially if your pushing the disc through the air with force rather than propelling it with a clean snap/spin style.

Other things in your technique will cause issues as well.

Let off the gas a little too and try to be smooth and fluid from start to finish.

All easier said than done!!

What I have noticed with disc selection. Lighter more overstable discs that are fast (speed ten) and up help.

You will still need to match your arm speed with speed of disc. The only way to cheat this is with some of the "air type plastic" that can be thrown in lighter weights yet are still overstable discs.

The lighter weight will help increase your arm speed a bit (acutally just a tiny bit) coupled with overstablity it will penetrate wind better.

But any improvements in your technique will help more than any type of "great" disc selection.

 

[Snaques]

Lets back up here a little.

Problems with distance in headwinds?

Not agreeing with you here.

First of all, the most OS discs the OP listed are Beast and Valkyrie, so I think it's fair to assume that he is not generally "pushing through with Force" as you say. He is even looking for rather stable than overstable disc, which really underlines this point.

Secondly, I think that at least from the physics point of view, moving to a heavier disc helps more than throwing a lighter more OS one. With a heavier disc it is enough to keep the same speed out of your hand as the disc will have more kinetic energy and as a result will hold up its' speed better.

Meanwhile a lighter disc would need higher velocity, which actually increases the drag exponentially. So to compensate the lack of kinetic energy due to lighter weight, you would have to smash the disc really hard. Hardly the recipe for success.