Successful Pay to Play Courses

[Deebo4Discs]

I think a lot has to do with the surrounding area and what golfers are used to. I live 20 miles from the Sabattus course but 99% of the courses in Maine are p2p. And I attribute part of that to me actually enjoying dg more. P2P was all I knew while learning to play and once I started traveling, I found shared use facilities annoying. Id rather pay the $5-$10 to know that I am only going to be dealing with other dgers. DG is thriving up here in Maine with 40+ p2p courses being supported by a small population.

 

[Deebo4Discs]

What about Woodland Valley in Limerick? They've never been too busy when I've been there, but added the third course since I started visiting the area several years ago. Something must be going right for them (I hope). The disc selection in the clubhouse was pretty sweet every time I've been there.

I dont frequent Woodland Valley as much as I used to but still represent them in the New England Winter Team Challenge and they dont have a shortage of players. Winter time tourneys still have 90+ people showing up in snow storms and have seen 200+ paying customers, just greens fees, during the summer weekends.

They groom 2 of their course year round, making it a great winter destination.

 

[DavidSauls]

I'm sure you nor Chris would be upset if Stoney Hill actually turned a profit, and you guys have been doing this quite a while now... have you even come close?

We now get enough donations to cover expenses, and improvements. Haven't put any money into our pockets---but no longer have to take money out of them, which is a good thing.

Unless you count mortgage payments, of course. And we certainly don't get paid for our time.

Which is fine--it would have to be an enormous leap to bring in enough money to call it "income", so we could be there and monitor things every day.

Which makes our situation not comparable to those trying to make money, to be financially viable (by whatever definition).

I doubt any course could bring in enough money to pay full-time staff and pay for the land and structure costs and still show a profit. In part because, if a course is close enough to enough population to bring in enough revenue, land is going to be quite expensive.

 

[discNDav]

We had a short run at a P2P in Louisville, the heralded Coyote Trace. It was on it's way to becoming a top 20 course on this site (4.64 at 21 reviews). I would have gladly given $200-$300 for an annual membership. Sadly, the riffraff caused its demise after maybe 6 months. The owner was an awesome guy but he couldn't keep up with the rule-breakers (showing up without a tee time/permission, littering, acting like idiots, etc). Once he kicked out a few bad apples, one of these vindictive dip****s alerted the county officials who then tried to rope the owner into some costly re-zoning BS. I don't know if this was the exact reason for shutting it down QUOTE]

I played Coyote once and loved it, I predicted it as a future top 10. I heard on this site they had EAB problems with Ash trees and flooding problems so it had to close. Since you seem
to be a local, maybe that's the true story.

 

[thrembo]

Georgia Canopy Tours is a good example of a pay to play. Disc golf isn't the primary focus, but they have a fantastic destination course with camping and other activities. Hudson Mills is another good example of pay to play in a municipal park where again, disc golf is one of many activities at the park, but they have 48 holes for you to play on for your hard earned cash. Another way to do pay to play is to put disc golf on an existing ball golf course. These types of courses are popping up all over Florida now. Some of them are actually pretty ok, plus a cart is nice in the HOT Florida summers.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Another way to do pay to play is to put disc golf on an existing ball golf course. These types of courses are popping up all over Florida now. Some of them are actually pretty ok, plus a cart is nice in the HOT Florida summers.

..especially given how long some of those courses are plus the walk between holes.

The first time I ever played on a golf course was for a tourney at Sunnybrook, and I noticed the tourney fee covered a golf cart. Thought to myself, "Who the hell needs a golf cart for DG? Seems like overkill."

The longs play over 11,000 ft, shorts nearly 8,000, with the distance between holes longer than some of the holes.
After the 1st round that day, was I ever glad we had a cart. :thmbup:

I don't even want to think about two rounds worth of schlepping a tourney bag that distance in So Fla heat/humidity. :thmbdown:

 

[Tripper]

..especially given how long some of those courses are plus the walk between holes.

The first time I ever played on a golf course was for a tourney at Sunnybrook, and I noticed the tourney fee covered a golf cart. Thought to myself, "Who the hell needs a golf cart for DG? Seems like overkill."

The longs play over 11,000 ft, shorts nearly 8,000, with the distance between holes longer than some of the holes.
After the 1st round that day, was I ever glad we had a cart. :thmbup:

I don't even want to think about two rounds worth of schlepping a tourney bag that distance in So Fla heat/humidity. :thmbdown:

The (somewhat) new addition of baskets to Stonewall Golf Course make it a dual use course (The Rock at Stonewall on DGCR). They require the use of carts I think, to keep the flow of play steady. I have to agree with Bogey that since the course plays over 11,000' and the cart paths are wilder than some roller coasters, I would never even attempt to walk it.

 

[Cgkdisc]

You'll know P2P has truly become financially viable when some outfit opens multiple course locations under its label and then franchises their model like Putt-Putt Miniature Golf. Maybe that will happen in Maine first?

 

[UP Mountain Man]

All excellent points. And I know I'm preaching to the choir, on this point, but...

There's HUGE difference between a private course that's a:

a) Commercial entity (whether a standalone course, or an added revenue stream for a larger, entertainment complex type of dealio), like NGCT, or combo ball/disc courses, and...

b) Labor of love, "I wanted to make a course of my own, it'd be nice if it didn't lose me too much $$$," à la any number of some of our most outstanding courses (e.g. Flip City, Stoney Hill, Harmon Hills, etc.)

I'm sure you nor Chris would be upset if Stoney Hill actually turned a profit, and you guys have been doing this quite a while now... have you even come close?

Another key point someone made earlier was, PROXIMITY TO POPULATION.
That's really essential for the volume it takes for economic sustainability. It also drives up the cost of the land immensely. Finding a suitable piece of property near a large population that's cheap enough to support a self-sustaining course has got to be the biggest hurdle by far. :\

You're absolutely correct about proximity to population affecting real estate prices. Up here in the U.P. you can choose from hundreds of 40 + acre wooded properties for $500 -$700 an acre. 5-6 hours away from the rest of the world though.

I think Chuck hit on something awhile age, when he brought up the idea of a Tiki type private course probably being the model that could make a go of it. I know it resonated with me, and stuck.

Another format I see generating a lot of excitement and participation are the winter indoor ace race type events, at least in the Milwaukee area. Although not PTP courses, the model is what I wanted to point out.

Regarding Madison PTP, I do understand that there are downsides too, and that the exclusion does affect the players that the future needs the most. I know if I ever do go PTP on my course, women and juniors will play for free.

 

[elmexdela]

The Flyboy situation was a bit different....though some poorly-behaved, rules-ignoring disc golfers contributed to it, too.

honest question..

what happened to flyboy? I always wanted to play it but during my hiatus from dgcr i must have missed what happened. do you have a brief summary?

 

[curmudgeonDwindle]

The basic answer to this question is the facility must provide value to its customers, and while many eschew the comparisons to the other golf, you can quickly see how private country clubs provide such value to attract and retain members. Their model is roughly followed by public facilities.

Most private clubs offer an entire sporting/gaming culture to members, with many activities and social events which encourage 'multi-level' integrated participation - they're selling a 'lifestyle' if you will (up to the inclusion of luxury housing adjoining the property). In addition, easy business networking is an unstated perk of membership. Plus, it's all under one roof, so to speak.

My first suggestion would be for more research on the OP's part, and then adapt some ideas which seem feasible for your situation. My second would be more direct and in-depth market research with your proposed targets.

For those of more modest means, the PCC is proving a more difficult model to sustain but learning to benefit from their experience might be a terrific time-saver.

 

[curmudgeonDwindle]

I doubt any course could bring in enough money to pay full-time staff and pay for the land and structure costs and still show a profit. In part because, if a course is close enough to enough population to bring in enough revenue, land is going to be quite expensive.

This is a salient point - most private country clubs are non or not-for profit corporations, granted some are adapting to a daily fee model. They exist at the behest of the members (or owners), because they're willing to pay for such a luxury. While they provide a large number of jobs and multiple income streams for many people, the idea is to NOT make any profit, which is roughly analogous to public facilities. This 'no profit' way dovetails with the social environment created at a club, with tie-ins to community charity groups like Junior League and the like.

There just isn't the same pressure that might come from a group of stockholders requiring a ROI (more likely the pressure will come from the greens and grounds committee demanding you fix the crappy greens). The structure of your enterprise partially determines how you manage it.

 

[DavidSauls]

honest question..

what happened to flyboy? I always wanted to play it but during my hiatus from dgcr i must have missed what happened. do you have a brief summary?

A combination of several factors. This story should be about 90% accurate; I'm sure some Which, of course, takes a lot more of his limited time.

It's hard to describe Flyboy, because it has an ambiance unlike anywhere else. On top of people know the inside scoop a little better than I do.

To begin with, you have to understand where Flyboy is: on the common land in a fly-in community. In other words, it's a rather exclusive neighborhood, and a balancing act to keep the homeowners happy with allowing it. Installed and maintained by the nicest person in disc golf---but also a very busy one.

It zoomed to #1 on this site, which created a lot of demand to play. Not every player could respect the rules, like stay out of this yard, or get off the runways when planes are landing, etc. They had a collegiate tournament there, and you can imagine that not all of the college kids were faithful to the rules.

So the compromise between Kelly and the neighborhood was that people could play if Kelly was with them---or perhaps one of two other guides. But Kelly's time is limited, and there was still a lot of demand. More than he could meet.

So he de-listed it.

The course is still there. Everyone once in a while, word gets through a grapevine and it's open to a group with inside connections; or arrangements are made for an out-of-towner. But Kelly has much higher standards than I do; he will only open it if it's in tip-top shape. Which, of course means more of Kelly's limited time.

It's hard to describe Flyboy. The ambiance is like nowhere else. On top of 36 good-to-great holes in a gorgeous setting. The first time I went there, I made the drive thinking, "This is going to be a disappointment because it can't possibly live up to the hype I've heard." Then spent the weekend dazzled.

Well, that's not a very brief summary. It's not so much extinct, as just under-the-radar now.

 

[elmexdela]

A combination of several factors. This story should be about 90% accurate; I'm sure some Which, of course, takes a lot more of his limited time.

It's hard to describe Flyboy, because it has an ambiance unlike anywhere else. On top of people know the inside scoop a little better than I do.

To begin with, you have to understand where Flyboy is: on the common land in a fly-in community. In other words, it's a rather exclusive neighborhood, and a balancing act to keep the homeowners happy with allowing it. Installed and maintained by the nicest person in disc golf---but also a very busy one.

It zoomed to #1 on this site, which created a lot of demand to play. Not every player could respect the rules, like stay out of this yard, or get off the runways when planes are landing, etc. They had a collegiate tournament there, and you can imagine that not all of the college kids were faithful to the rules.

So the compromise between Kelly and the neighborhood was that people could play if Kelly was with them---or perhaps one of two other guides. But Kelly's time is limited, and there was still a lot of demand. More than he could meet.

So he de-listed it.

The course is still there. Everyone once in a while, word gets through a grapevine and it's open to a group with inside connections; or arrangements are made for an out-of-towner. But Kelly has much higher standards than I do; he will only open it if it's in tip-top shape. Which, of course means more of Kelly's limited time.

It's hard to describe Flyboy. The ambiance is like nowhere else. On top of 36 good-to-great holes in a gorgeous setting. The first time I went there, I made the drive thinking, "This is going to be a disappointment because it can't possibly live up to the hype I've heard." Then spent the weekend dazzled.

Well, that's not a very brief summary. It's not so much extinct, as just under-the-radar now.

I still read everything! thank you

 

[DavidSauls]

The basic answer to this question is the facility must provide value to its customers, and while many eschew the comparisons to the other golf, you can quickly see how private country clubs provide such value to attract and retain members. Their model is roughly followed by public facilities.

Most private clubs offer an entire sporting/gaming culture to members, with many activities and social events which encourage 'multi-level' integrated participation - they're selling a 'lifestyle' if you will (up to the inclusion of luxury housing adjoining the property). In addition, easy business networking is an unstated perk of membership. Plus, it's all under one roof, so to speak.

My first suggestion would be for more research on the OP's part, and then adapt some ideas which seem feasible for your situation. My second would be more direct and in-depth market research with your proposed targets.

For those of more modest means, the PCC is proving a more difficult model to sustain but learning to benefit from their experience might be a terrific time-saver.

Though a few folks have dreamed of a Disc Golf Country Club, I think the model others hope to follow is less like golf, and more like other activities---a pay-to-play athletic venue. Of course, lacking the social benefits you describe, it won't command nearly the money.

 

[DavidSauls]

Somehow some sentences got scrambled and put in the wrong paragraphs there. Possibly user error on my part. Darned edit window.

The first paragraph is supposed to say that I'm sure someone knows the story a little better than I do.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Somehow some sentences got scrambled and put in the wrong paragraphs there. Possibly user error on my part. Darned edit window.

The first paragraph is supposed to say that I'm sure someone knows the story a little better than I do.

Editing errors and all, your summary gets the point across well.

 

[puttlikeablowfly]

Regarding Madison PTP, I do understand that there are downsides too, and that the exclusion does affect the players that the future needs the most. I know if I ever do go PTP on my course, women and juniors will play for free.

Kids play for free (no permit required) at the City of Madison and Dane County courses. I believe it is age 15 and under for both, although one may be 16 and under.

 

[DavidSauls]

Editing errors and all, your summary gets the point across well.

Thanks. I'd had 2 hours sleep in the previous 40 hours, and somehow managed to cut some sentences and paste them randomly, elsewhere. I'd correct it, but it's a thread drift---Flyboy was and is, by no means, and effort to make a P2P course economically viable. It is a successful private course, by other measures, but that's for another thread, not this one.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

I really think kids under the age of about 14 - 16 play free actually makes sense for P2P courses, particularly those that have a tough time generating the volume needed to cover costs.

I can see how a guy on a tight budget might be hesitant to go to a course with his kids if he's gotta pay for all of them... might go to the free course instead. This also helps grow their future customer base.