Tournament Profits

[schnelle]

*snip * (Split from this thread)



Honestly, this is one of the most incorrect / ignorant things I've read on this board in a long time.

MTL you sound like an arrogant moron. Please don't EVER run a tournament in KS. Thank you

 

[ScottyLove]

wow!

Maybe I should re-read my post, but I don't think I'm entitled to anything really. I'm just using the only example I know of as a model. Remember... I've only been playing PDGA events for 1 year. The event a few weeks back where I garnered the $147 voucher (used to buy an Innova Discatcher Sport basket for more practice time) was the 1 year anniversary for me... I nabbed $64 for 5th in that same tournament the year before.

So yeah... my experience is only paying in Russ' tournaments with super nice payouts and The Memorial (huge player pack), US Masters (nice player pack) and Am Worlds (CRAZY player pack)... so I guess I was shocked to here that folks get less than that. I know the Rec winner of the KCWO got LESS in payout than entry fee and almost no player pack. Sounded odd to me based on my experience.

I'm the TD of the Jefferson City Open this October and you bet your ass I'm working hard to get monies. Made over $200 tonight at Pizza Hut in fact. We should raise enough money to pay for 100% of the players pack (~$1300) and add $1000 cash to the payouts. And this is for a silly C-Tier.

Is it hard work? Sure... but with a VERY active and growing club, the effort is distributed so nobody gets really burned out. But it's been rewarding and I'm looking forward to hosting the best tournament around. We're gonna make the course a GOLD layout for those who cannot travel to the major events so they can experience ropes, island greens, elevated baskets, and crazy OB lines. I say "we're bringing an NT feel to the locals since they all cannot travel to the bigger events."

So... again... I apologize if my post came across as some entitled douche bag. I was only comparing MTL's description of his tournaments to the ones I've played in. I'm sure they're nice... It's just that given the choice between two nice tournaments but with unequal payouts, why would anyone choose one with such a little payout unless the experience was so much better?

Maybe we here in SW and Mid-Missouri are spoiled to extremely professionally run tournaments on nice courses with super payouts. I do know that another vendor from KS ran a tournament nearby recently and kept some of the ACE pot for himself... I can tell you many folks won't play in those any time soon.

 

[Three Putt]

Where is the line, though? Do you HAVE to have all that crud to attend a tournament? Lets say California puts together an event at Proctor Lake. Four times around on 9-holes with some temp tees to give it variety. $12. Trophy payout. Lunch provided. Just a low-cost local event. You have nothing going on. Going out to California for the day, or staying home because the payout sucks? From my experience, most players stay home. Not only will they stay home, they will mock and bad mouth whoever put the low cost/no payout tournament together. That's sad. We used to like to play disc golf because we liked to play disc golf.

Busting your ass to raise money for an event is all fine and dandy, but why does that become the focus? Why isn't the game the focus. Gonna trick out Binder Park? Sounds cool. Shouldn't that be enough? The fact is, that's NOT enough. You know it's not enough. All I'm saying is that it should be. It shouldn't be about the payout. It should be about the golf.

 

[NOStheBOSS]

Where is the line, though? Do you HAVE to have all that crud to attend a tournament? Lets say California puts together an event at Proctor Lake. Four times around on 9-holes with some temp tees to give it variety. $12. Trophy payout. Lunch provided. Just a low-cost local event. You have nothing going on. Going out to California for the day, or staying home because the payout sucks? From my experience, most players stay home. Not only will they stay home, they will mock and bad mouth whoever put the low cost/no payout tournament together. That's sad. We used to like to play disc golf because we liked to play disc golf.

Busting your ass to raise money for an event is all fine and dandy, but why does that become the focus? Why isn't the game the focus. Gonna trick out Binder Park? Sounds cool. Shouldn't that be enough? The fact is, that's NOT enough. You know it's not enough. All I'm saying is that it should be. It shouldn't be about the payout. It should be about the golf.

:clap:

 

[Dave242]

I'm the TD of the Jefferson City Open this October and you bet your ass I'm working hard to get monies. Made over $200 tonight at Pizza Hut in fact. We should raise enough money to pay for 100% of the players pack (~$1300) and add $1000 cash to the payouts. And this is for a silly C-Tier.

Is it hard work? Sure... but with a VERY active and growing club, the effort is distributed so nobody gets really burned out. But it's been rewarding and I'm looking forward to hosting the best tournament around.

Hey - thanks for coming back with a reasoned and reasonable response (certainly not what I would expect from a 14 year old ). What you posted sounded like the epitome of entitlement, but this background (especially what I quoted) gives a different context for sure! It sounded like you were on the receiving end of things only, but it is cool to see you are squarely in the giving end too.

Wanting to do the best for a pursuit you love for people you enjoy is pretty cool in my book. I am still baffled by the lengths you guys are going and by what is motivating you....but who am I to complain about a bunch of people with a Santa Claus complex.

Seems like you might be in a great situation to run some killer charity DG events.

 

[jrawk]

Where is the line, though? Do you HAVE to have all that crud to attend a tournament? Lets say California puts together an event at Proctor Lake. Four times around on 9-holes with some temp tees to give it variety. $12. Trophy payout. Lunch provided. Just a low-cost local event. You have nothing going on. Going out to California for the day, or staying home because the payout sucks? From my experience, most players stay home. Not only will they stay home, they will mock and bad mouth whoever put the low cost/no payout tournament together. That's sad. We used to like to play disc golf because we liked to play disc golf.

Busting your ass to raise money for an event is all fine and dandy, but why does that become the focus? Why isn't the game the focus. Gonna trick out Binder Park? Sounds cool. Shouldn't that be enough? The fact is, that's NOT enough. You know it's not enough. All I'm saying is that it should be. It shouldn't be about the payout. It should be about the golf.

Rarely ever to i post "this". But... THIS!

 

[Three Putt]

I am still baffled by the lengths you guys are going and by what is motivating you....

Keeping up with the Joneses. Dynamic Discs is not so far away, a lot of people here go to Glass Blown and such. DD throws a ton of crap at the players. Disc Golf Monkey is smaller but doing the same thing and is aggressively taking over PDGA tournament play. Jeff City is on the Disc Golf Monkey schedule so he probably is involved in putting their event on. It's this constant beat of more/more/more. Gotta raise more money, gotta have a bigger payout.

C-tiers didn't used to be that way; C-tiers were the events where you didn't add anything to the payout and ran for local guys to get points. Now C-tiers are huge productions around here. They do more for C-tiers than we used to do for A-tiers. That is either pushing the sport forward or driving us to a crazy unsustainable breaking point, depending on your perspective.

 

[Casual Squishy]

All these types of discussions just reinforce the idea to me that the division/ratings structure needs updating and all divisions should just compete for cash within their division. Hard caps on Am divisions (possibly forcing age based divisions to share the same caps as advanced/intermediate<MM1/MG1<935 or be forced to play MA1) MA1>985 must play open, etc.
TDs player packs would be from sponsorship only, (all divisions would split any raised.) Added cash would only go to the highest divisions (MPO FPO and MPM MGM for age based tournaments etc.) because they would presumably beat all the other divsions to begin with.
TDs keep a flat % or can roll it back into added cash etc. This would re-equalize the playing fields among TDs in the long run, with no worries about the "Big guys" with trucks full of varied merch eventually running the little guys and clubs out of town. Local plastic dealers (including TDs with plastic businesses) still have plenty of opportunity for profit SELLING plastic at tournaments, and it would present a standardized system that doesn't lead to expectations or entitlements.
The whole arguement "Rec players getting $150.. Outrageous!" Well, if there's 25 rec players at a tournament and they're all 850 rated.. why the hell not? Just because there's only 5 open players at the same tournament means rec payout should be capped at max open payout out of fairness?
There's a reason doubles and now handicapped singles are disc golf's most popular format.. No one really wants to be the perpetual donor. They want to have a chance at winning back some of the money they put up. At the same time the division based structure we have also encourages playing for prestige, there're sandbaggers out there that don't care about anything except winnings, sure, but if that were the overwhelming goal for most you wouldn't see so many older 920-970 rated players still hacking away at pro divisions they could never hope to cash in except once in a blue moon. You can't be a sandbagger in rec (or anything else but advanced and age protected ams really) and keep winning without eventually being forced up anyways.
In disc golf, the size of the field determines the size of the purse, and the size of the purse often ends up determining the size of the field. At the majority of PDGA events, the one thing almost every players wants is.. more players in their own division.

 

[Casual Squishy]

Simple sample:
PDGA C tier
Minimum # players 25 (replaces added cash requirements while maintaining PDGA event tier points tables)
Novice/ Rec 20$ (because anything less is local league entry fee level)
INT 30$
Advanced 40$
Open 50$
Presumably the better your game the more you're willing to risk/afford and encourages people to move up and the intangible prestige.

B tier minimum 50 players minimum 2 day event.
30/40/50/60$

A tier split courses minimum 72 players, minimum 2 day event.
30/50/60/70$

Is there any way in which that is not fair and reasonable? Well, kind of. The points/tier system is kind of screwy in some aspects. The other way to do it that would possibly be more fair is:

TD determines entry fee scale based on what his desire is and what he thinks the market will bear but keep the sliding scale of 10-15$ per division and the actual tier of the event would be determined AFTER the event individually for each division based on the number of players in each division. In other words, you attend a tourney with 10 int 20 open and 30 advanced.. INT is C tier, open is B tier and advanced is A tier. You get your pdga points based on how many players you beat the same way you do now, except the multiplier is also based on the number of players not how much "added cash" there is in the pot. The PDGA multiplier was setup based on the expectation that it would encourage TDs to solicit more sponsorship and thus attract more players, that model has failed to work out in practice in all but a few dozens of annual tournaments out of thousands. The outside money on the scale disc golfers dream of just isn't there for the forseeable future.

 

[Casual Squishy]

It's also time just to put an end to a bunch of other arguments and just start calling all the ratings based divisions Division 1, 2, 3, 4, and "not quite ready yet" and decide what to set the ratings limits at. The hardest part is setting the lower limit because at some point you just have to lump all the low averages together and have to do it without discouraging anyone.

 

[Casual Squishy]

All these types of discussions just reinforce the idea to me that the division/ratings structure needs updating and all divisions should just compete for cash within their division. Hard caps on Am divisions (possibly forcing age based divisions to share the same caps as advanced/intermediate<MM1/MG1<935 or be forced to play MA1) MA1>985 must play open, etc.
TDs player packs would be from sponsorship only, (all divisions would split any raised.) Added cash would only go to the highest divisions (MPO FPO and MPM MGM for age based tournaments etc.) because they would presumably beat all the other divsions to begin with. TDs keep a flat % or can roll it back into added cash etc. This would re-equalize the playing fields among TDs in the long run, with no worries about the "Big guys" with trucks full of varied merch eventually running the little guys and clubs out of town. Local plastic dealers (including TDs with plastic businesses) still have plenty of opportunity for profit SELLING plastic at tournaments, and it would present a standardized system that doesn't lead to expectations or entitlements.
The whole arguement "Rec players getting $150.. Outrageous!" Well, if there's 25 rec players at a tournament and they're all 850 rated.. why the hell not? Just because there's only 5 open players at the same tournament means rec payout should be capped at max open payout out of fairness?
There's a reason doubles and now handicapped singles are disc golf's most popular format.. No one really wants to be the perpetual donor. They want to have a chance at winning back some of the money they put up. At the same time the division based structure we have also encourages playing for prestige, there're sandbaggers out there that don't care about anything except winnings, sure, but if that were the overwhelming goal for most you wouldn't see so many older 920-970 rated players still hacking away at pro divisions they could never hope to cash in except once in a blue moon. You can't be a sandbagger in rec (or anything else but advanced and age protected ams really) and keep winning without eventually being forced up anyways.
In disc golf, the size of the field determines the size of the purse, and the size of the purse often ends up determining the size of the field. At the majority of PDGA events, the one thing almost every players wants is.. more players in their own division.

I've got to quote myself on that because it sounds ambiguous. TDs would be the determiner of how sponsorship money is spent, but any sponsorship classed as the "Added Cash" would be added to the top divisions only. (If a TD had say, $1000 in outside money from fundraisers or direct sponsorship he might decide to make it $500 in player packs for the entire field, $500 in cash for top divisions only or any combination they wanted.)

 

[sidewinder22]

I clicked his profile to verify for sure what I already knew....that we are dealing with a 14 year old and should cut a little slack here. I'm embarrassed to say that people who are my age (47) post like this Mr. Elam (either for serious or trolling).

Wow.

 

[sidewinder22]

All these types of discussions just reinforce the idea to me that the division/ratings structure needs updating and all divisions should just compete for cash within their division. Hard caps on Am divisions (possibly forcing age based divisions to share the same caps as advanced/intermediate<MM1/MG1<935 or be forced to play MA1) MA1>985 must play open, etc.

This system is still just ratings based gambling, it's not about competition. Why can't the Am's that want to gamble, just do it on the side? This would also be a conflict for young players that want to play any NCAA sport.

The whole arguement "Rec players getting $150.. Outrageous!" Well, if there's 25 rec players at a tournament and they're all 850 rated.. why the hell not? Just because there's only 5 open players at the same tournament means rec payout should be capped at max open payout out of fairness?
There's a reason doubles and now handicapped singles are disc golf's most popular format.. No one really wants to be the perpetual donor. They want to have a chance at winning back some of the money they put up. At the same time the division based structure we have also encourages playing for prestige, there're sandbaggers out there that don't care about anything except winnings, sure, but if that were the overwhelming goal for most you wouldn't see so many older 920-970 rated players still hacking away at pro divisions they could never hope to cash in except once in a blue moon. You can't be a sandbagger in rec (or anything else but advanced and age protected ams really) and keep winning without eventually being forced up anyways.
In disc golf, the size of the field determines the size of the purse, and the size of the purse often ends up determining the size of the field. At the majority of PDGA events, the one thing almost every players wants is.. more players in their own division.

I still think that those who want to gamble should just do it on the side and make their own handicap system with whomever. Wouldn't a one division ratings based handicap system or sliding scale entry fee system be fairer to everyone? Rating protected divisions making more than the best players is an absolute joke. That's mediocrity rewarded, that ain't competition rewarded.

 

[DavidSauls]

Maybe I should re-read my post, but I don't think I'm entitled to anything really.

I think the word in that post that set things off was "negligent".

As in, saying that TDs who don't devote their volunteer time to hustling up sponsorships so they can give the players extra stuff are negligent.

Perhaps it's just that their values or concepts of a good tournament or available volunteer time are different.

When a TD is volunteering a ton of his time and doing a ton of effort for other people to play, calling him "negligent" is likely to rub him the wrong way.

 

[ScottyLove]

Oh but this exact tournament happened!

Where is the line, though? Do you HAVE to have all that crud to attend a tournament? Lets say California puts together an event at Proctor Lake. Four times around on 9-holes with some temp tees to give it variety. $12. Trophy payout. Lunch provided. Just a low-cost local event. You have nothing going on. Going out to California for the day, or staying home because the payout sucks? From my experience, most players stay home. Not only will they stay home, they will mock and bad mouth whoever put the low cost/no payout tournament together. That's sad. We used to like to play disc golf because we liked to play disc golf.

Busting your ass to raise money for an event is all fine and dandy, but why does that become the focus? Why isn't the game the focus. Gonna trick out Binder Park? Sounds cool. Shouldn't that be enough? The fact is, that's NOT enough. You know it's not enough. All I'm saying is that it should be. It shouldn't be about the payout. It should be about the golf.

Do you own a crystal ball?? We put of 9 temp basket is some awesome locations around Proctor Lake last year during the Ham & Turkey festival. 2 rounds of low cost, non-sanctioned disc golf focused mainly on exposing the sport to locals and children. The turn out was great and everyone walked away with a paper back that had a meat stick, a mini, a RULES BOOK, some peanuts, and I can't remember what else.

The city folks and non-players loved it and the competitors showed up to beat each other and try the some new shots... like basked under monkey bars and Bullseye Basket across short lake by the caboose. It'll happen again this year because of the feedback.

So perhaps my original statements aren't the correct sentiment that I currently hold. I FREAKING LOVE THIS SPORT. I play it EVERY DAY on my lunch hour ('cept this week... resting my shoulder after 2-3 rounds per day for 10 days at worlds). I flew to freaking Scottsdale, AZ with no hope of getting anything other than the experience of playing an NT and hanging out with the professionals. I played ball golf pretty well (5 handicap) for 30 years and never had this much passion about it. I haven't picked up a club in over a year since I wrapped my paws around a DX Stingray.

So I want to do as much as I can to bring more folks in by any means. I'm helping to build 4 new courses in the area and have presented to several city councils and park boards on the subject. I'm just trying to do my part.

But back on track... would I play in a tournament without a nice payout? Sure.. I would. Ask me again in 5 years. Maybe that's what Three Putt is talking about. There becomes a time where the focus changes. And based on my very limited experience, I see the the tournaments around here selling out and turning folks away (even after adding temp holes to accommodate more players) as the norm. It's because the local clubs work hard to increase the payout and exposure. The Joplin crew is the model we're looking to. A $1300+ payout for 1st place in a B-Tier is exceptional. 180 players on two courses for two days bringing in folks from many states. But it took 6 years to get to that point. Russ used to buy back plastic from them so they wouldn't be so far in the red.

Heck, we've NEVER made a profit here in Jeff City. It's been a break even tournament for the past 5 years. This year will be different because we're working harder and earlier.

I think I'm rambling now...:doh:

Just wanted to say that I'm down for playing California any time. It's one of my very favorite courses because it's so pretty and I'd play it without any payout.

 

[Dave242]

Where is the line, though? Do you HAVE to have all that crud to attend a tournament?

Do you own a crystal ball??

I believe that expectations of payouts are very heavily influenced by the minimums set forth in the PDGA Tour Standards (http://www.pdga.com/tour/standards):
A Tier Ams - $25 players pack, 100%+ payout, $30 $50 $60 max entry fee
B Tier Ams - $10 players pack, 100%+ payout, $25 $30 $50 max entry fee
C Tier Ams - no players pack, 85% payout, $20 $20 $30 max entry fee

I believe that this is the crystal ball you are in search of.

If your take on things is truly representative of how things are done in your area, you have established that expectations can be altered by local customs.

But, the expectations set by this document explain the outcry over your demand/expectation that TDs not neglect blowing these minimums out of the water.

 

[DSmith]

The entry fees listed on the tour standards is the net fee which means that is the entry fee minus and other fees like pdga per player, greens fees etc. This is not what your supposed to charge entrants its just what monry should be left minimum after deductions.

 

[Three Putt]

I believe that expectations of payouts are very heavily influenced by the minimums set forth in the PDGA Tour Standards (http://www.pdga.com/tour/standards):
A Tier Ams - $25 players pack, 100%+ payout, $30 $50 $60 max entry fee
B Tier Ams - $10 players pack, 100%+ payout, $25 $30 $50 max entry fee
C Tier Ams - no players pack, 85% payout, $20 $20 $30 max entry fee

I believe that this is the crystal ball you are in search of.

If your take on things is truly representative of how things are done in your area, you have established that expectations can be altered by local customs.

But, the expectations set by this document explain the outcry over your demand/expectation that TDs not neglect blowing these minimums out of the water.

What happened here (I'm not sure but I think it started in Oklahoma and spread this way) was that C tiers started having payouts that would be generous for a B tier. The only thing they might be short on to be an A tier is the $1800 added to the pro purse, but they are way over the $500 added you need for a B tier. When the C tiers have almost A tier-type payouts, the system gets jacked up.

I have no problem with Jeff City throwing a big party. People like big parties. However, if they are going to hold a B tier, call it a B tier. If you hold a B tier and call it a C tier, people start expecting B tier payouts at C tiers. The payout scale is there for a reason. Right now in this area you can't hold an actual C tier. C tiers are supposed to be no players pack, no cash added and 85% payback. Basically you play for each others money. If you held a C tier using that formula around here, everyone would scream that you were ripping them off.

In short, C tiers are not supposed to be a huge production. If you are going to hold a huge production, at least make it a B tier.

 

[ScottyLove]

I believe that expectations of payouts are very heavily influenced by the minimums set forth in the PDGA Tour Standards (http://www.pdga.com/tour/standards):
A Tier Ams - $25 players pack, 100%+ payout, $30 $50 $60 max entry fee
B Tier Ams - $10 players pack, 100%+ payout, $25 $30 $50 max entry fee
C Tier Ams - no players pack, 85% payout, $20 $20 $30 max entry fee

I believe that this is the crystal ball you are in search of.

If your take on things is truly representative of how things are done in your area, you have established that expectations can be altered by local customs.

But, the expectations set by this document explain the outcry over your demand/expectation that TDs not neglect blowing these minimums out of the water.

I had to re-read this a few times, but I think I get your point. We have a standard and those TDs meeting the standard shouldn't be chastised for meeting the minimum just because we've become accustomed to far greater than minimum, right?

I think I agree. Perhaps we're just lucky in the these parts that most every tournament has the player's pack paid for by someone other than the players. That could be abnormal, but it's all I know. I have a locally owned store begging to give me $1000 to be the presenting sponsor. I'm hesitant because it's a head shop... and we all know that's part of the sport we're striving to overcome. But heck, it's a $1000!!!! In the mean time we're hitting up car dealers, radio/TV stations, and every other business around for cash hoping someone other than the smoke shop will opt for the presenting sponsor level and we can let him sponsor the 2nd day skills competition.

Again, I chased a rabbit there. Apparently my ADD meds haven't kicked in this morning.

IMHO, 2 factors increase tournament participation.
1) Added cash for pros - brings in top talent to fatten their wallet
2) Super cool player's pack for ams - attracts lesser skilled folks with no shot of getting a voucher.

If you go overboard on #2, then you can skip the vouchers altogether. I know the top guys got plastic at US Masters and The Memorial, but the players packs were more of the draw to me. Same for Am Worlds, but it'd fill with probably nothing given since it's more about prestige. We did get the absolute coolest players pack anyhow. Add to that the poker night, downtown party, glow round, and more and it's easy to see that extra effort for such things is worth the effort.

That's exactly why we're added a player's party for our C-Tier event. Free drink and food plus putting competition at the venue. Who wouldn't like to do that?

 

[Pwingles]

What happened here (I'm not sure but I think it started in Oklahoma and spread this way) was that C tiers started having payouts that would be generous for a B tier. The only thing they might be short on to be an A tier is the $1800 added to the pro purse, but they are way over the $500 added you need for a B tier. When the C tiers have almost A tier-type payouts, the system gets jacked up.

I have no problem with Jeff City throwing a big party. People like big parties. However, if they are going to hold a B tier, call it a B tier. If you hold a B tier and call it a C tier, people start expecting B tier payouts at C tiers. The payout scale is there for a reason. Right now in this area you can't hold an actual C tier. C tiers are supposed to be no players pack, no cash added and 85% payback. Basically you play for each others money. If you held a C tier using that formula around here, everyone would scream that you were ripping them off.

In short, C tiers are not supposed to be a huge production. If you are going to hold a huge production, at least make it a B tier.

I agree with this. However in my area, this is the trend. "He" thinks its a bonus or something, but its really just an en extra few bucks for him and less work. Counter productive, imo