Ulibarri Displays True Sportsmanship

[Cgkdisc]

The moral issue here is that players who are tied are FORCED by policy to play off via sudden death process fraught with flukiness. They spent 1, 2, 3, 4 or more rounds battling to this point and yet must wager $500 on the outcome of a single hole? Would you play another player equal in your skill level in sudden death for $500? What if you could pick the starting hole? No single hole incorporates all of the various skills a player used to get to the tie so no single starting hole or sequence is likely to be equally as fair for both players. A cumulated score 4-hole playoff is a definite improvement like they use in the British Open. Then, Uli would not have missed that putt nor would GG.

So the question is whether sudden death is a "moral" system to split ties? Does it really determine the most deserving winner, just force a fluky winner, or are they truly both winners unless another full unit of competition is played (18 holes)?

 

[sidewinder22]

I suppose because collusion and pot splitting happens at the professional level in both endeavors, albeit for slightly different reasons.

And admittedly, its a flawed analogy. A top poker tournament player can make every decision correctly and still bust out when the luck of an upcoming card isn't on his side. That's why a lot of players make agreements to pool up their winnings. In DG, luck isn't so much of a factor.

Splitting the money takes out the "luck" factor. Its no different in poker or disc golf. Its not really colluding either because they aren't gaining an unfair advantage over anybody.

"Luck" is a factor in most any sport. In this case its really not any different than the one outter on the river to hit the royal flush. Its not very likely, but it happens. Say Paul throws a bad drive and hits a tree and gets a lucky bounce into the basket? Or say he throws a sweet roller, but hits a stick laying on the course and it kicks OB? I've hit chains dead center and have the wind all the sudden pick up and throws it out. How are these scenarios any different?

 

[Jax11]

I personally think what Uli did was in the spirit of competition. He wanted to win against GG's very best not an unlucky bounce out. In other words he did not want the win handed to him on an unlucky bounce, but rather he wanted to earn it against GG.

Those that saw it add more depth to the situation because GG did it in return. They wanted someone to actually make a better shot/ play a better hole than the other for someone to be named victorious.

As far as the top pros splitting cash, I don't think anyone has said that its productive for the sport, but rather it is necessary for the top pros to continue touring while they have minimal income to speak of.

 

[The Hammer]

Boy, a lot of folks bickering over a matter here that didn't involve them, and where no third parties were harmed. Or is there an underground DG betting syndicate that I should know about that had big money riding on the outcome of the VPO. I suppose if Uli ends up in a shallow grave in the desert, well know soon enough.

Anyways, if you didn't care for his decision to drop the would have been winning putt, fine and dandy, but there's no need for name calling, particularly by folks that will never be at this guy's level of play or understand the life of a traveling DG pro.

:thmbup:

 

[kingjames1014]

"Colluding" in a first place playoff, which is where it occurs, affects no other players than the ones playing. Only those wagering on the outcome might be affected financially. Note that money for all other tied places is split. So why do we worry that players also choose to split what was a tied position prior to the playoff?

Exactally! I play poker in a local league and the final two Heads up usually split the money. in larger tournaments, the final four divide the money evenly. then they usually play for the points awarded for winning. just a courtesy that players in our league do. If PU and GG decided to split the prize money before the playoff, i have no problem with that. Play for the title and the trophy. Why slam a guy for being courteous when it helps promote good sportmanship and the sport itself? This sport needs all the good publicity it can get and kinda break the "stoner" mentality before it can be taken seriously.

 

[kpc2004]

this aint no girl scout honor match....for all he knew, his putt might have hit chains and basket and missed too. if i were the other guy, i wouldnt want any charity i would rather be beat than lose knowing he dumped a shot to keep me in it. but hey, thats just me. and like mentioned 150X before, they probably already split the $$$$ so whateva

 

[kingjames1014]

I personally think what Uli did was in the spirit of competition. He wanted to win against GG's very best not an unlucky bounce out. In other words he did not want the win handed to him on an unlucky bounce, but rather he wanted to earn it against GG.

Those that saw it add more depth to the situation because GG did it in return. They wanted someone to actually make a better shot/ play a better hole than the other for someone to be named victorious.

As far as the top pros splitting cash, I don't think anyone has said that its productive for the sport, but rather it is necessary for the top pros to continue touring while they have minimal income to speak of.

:hfive:

 

[bthoma1]

How do you, as you say, Golf circles around someone?

really understable plastic maybe?

 

[Frank Delicious]

The moral issue here is that players who are tied are FORCED by policy to play off via sudden death process fraught with flukiness. They spent 1, 2, 3, 4 or more rounds battling to this point and yet must wager $500 on the outcome of a single hole? Would you play another player equal in your skill level in sudden death for $500? What if you could pick the starting hole? No single hole incorporates all of the various skills a player used to get to the tie so no single starting hole or sequence is likely to be equally as fair for both players. A cumulated score 4-hole playoff is a definite improvement like they use in the British Open. Then, Uli would not have missed that putt nor would GG.

So the question is whether sudden death is a "moral" system to split ties? Does it really determine the most deserving winner, just force a fluky winner, or are they truly both winners unless another full unit of competition is played (18 holes)?

I could get behind a 4 hole playoff system.

Also do you maybe know someone on the inside at the PDGA that could suggest this to the competition committee or whoever? I bet you do.

 

[CoachQ]

why are we comparing a sport to a card game?

I was responding to a reference made by another individual...see my first quote.

Also, all of those that define this as "collusion" have a flawed definition of the term. They did not work together in order to prevent others from shooting better than them. We don't even know if theychopped up the $$$. Even if they did chop it...NOT collusion! No one else was entitled to the money they were splitting. Thrid place $ was not effected by the what they chose to do or not do.

I am done with this as it did not have any bearing on my life. The rest, enjoy. opcorn:

 

[Cgkdisc]

I could get behind a 4 hole playoff system. Also do you maybe know someone on the inside at the PDGA that could suggest this to the competition committee or whoever? I bet you do.

Already done an hour ago

 

[billnchristy]

Those 4 holes should represent the course's variety as much as possible too and not just be the closest holes to tourney central.

 

[Thumber]

Already done an hour ago

Holy Cow! A discussion here actually led to something other than a flame war....nice work

 

[Cgkdisc]

If a 4-hole playoff is still tied, I think we then go to a "putt off" which is our version of the shoot out in soccer or hockey to finally break ties. The TD puts down five markers on the ground spaced around a basket from 20-40 feet. Players each shoot a putt from all five spots. Most makes wins. If still tied, another round of five until the tie is broken. The TD can move the markers between sets of five. For crowd amusement, should one player be allowed to stand behind the basket, jump up and down and wave to distract the putter?

 

[Dave242]

so then why bother with playoffs if this is how they go anyway?

Sponsor bonuses (hundreds/thousands of dollars)
World rankings
Player of the Year
The record books (number of wins etc)
......

 

[skinner21]

I would like to know how GG felt about it. I would think that most players, myself included, would hate to be given charity like that. It feels condisending to me.

There were a lot of examples of sportsmanship in this thread, but they always revolved around not receiving a direct advantage from an injury on the feild. Once the play resumes, it's picked up right where it left off before the player got hurt. This is not at all appliciple to this situation.

This is more like a baseball taking a really bad bounce or a player losing the ball in the sun/lights (all fluke plays) and the team scoring the winning run on the play. It happens. He's not dumb/classy/a jackass/whatever. Nieve, maybe, but since they were splitting the pot, there obviously wasn't enough on the line for him to play that way.

BTW, I don't really care about them splitting the pot. I wish it wasn't that way, but these guys are just trying to get by. Until this is otherwise, this will continue. And comparing them to gamblers does not sit well with my views on professional gamblers.

 

[Dave242]

The moral issue here is that players who are tied are FORCED by policy to play off via sudden death process fraught with flukiness. They spent 1, 2, 3, 4 or more rounds battling to this point and yet must wager $500 on the outcome of a single hole? Would you play another player equal in your skill level in sudden death for $500? What if you could pick the starting hole? No single hole incorporates all of the various skills a player used to get to the tie so no single starting hole or sequence is likely to be equally as fair for both players. A cumulated score 4-hole playoff is a definite improvement like they use in the British Open. Then, Uli would not have missed that putt nor would GG.

So the question is whether sudden death is a "moral" system to split ties? Does it really determine the most deserving winner, just force a fluky winner, or are they truly both winners unless another full unit of competition is played (18 holes)?

I pretty much agree, but this does not completely hold water. You can back this logic up to hole 18 on the 72nd hole played: If they are tied after 71 holes, then how is it fair/moral/equitable if the 72nd hole favors one player's skills over the other's? And, you can back that up to hole 71 and 70 and 69......

You might say that hole 18 is part of the stipulated course. Well, by the same token, hole 1 of the sudden death playoff is also part of the stipulated course (unless the TD makes up the playoff course once he knows who is in the playoff).

 

[skinner21]

If a 4-hole playoff is still tied, I think we then go to a "putt off" which is our version of the shoot out in soccer or hockey to finally break ties. The TD puts down five markers on the ground spaced around a basket from 20-40 feet. Players each shoot a putt from all five spots. Most makes wins. If still tied, another round of five until the tie is broken. The TD can move the markers between sets of five. For crowd amusement, should one player be allowed to stand behind the basket, jump up and down and wave to distract the putter?

I hate the idea of a shootout. Keep playing the actual game instead of making a sideshow determine the winner. I would rather they just tie than have a shootout.

 

[GLong]

maybe we should stop worrying about Pauly U and worry more about why the two guys in playoff both play for Innova. I think this is obviously a sign that Innova is bribing other players to lose tournaments so that they can sell more discs.

 

[Thumber]

I hate the idea of a shootout. Keep playing the actual game instead of making a sideshow determine the winner. I would rather they just tie than have a shootout.

Knife fights....there's always a winner