What should happen to the "quitters"

[garublador]

That's avoiding the issue. Yes, I usually side with the idea if you want to play register early. One of my buddies didn't have the money during early registration and wanted to sign up later but the event was full and he wasn't able to get in. Then comes the start of the event, a player gets a 7 on their 2nd hole of the first round and walks off the course. Meanwhile my buddy is sitting on the sideline, while this DB just quits. It's not a perfect system, and there's no straightforward solution to it.

He wouldn't have gotten to play if the guy finished the round, either, so what's the difference? I'm not saying it's a sportsmanlike thing to do, but do you really need a rule against it? Should there be a rule forcing all payers to give all other players a high five and say "good round" at the end of each round becasue that's the sportsmanlike thing to do, too? Should there be a rule forcing all pros to sign autographs anytime anyone asks becasue that's the nice thing to do?

 

[burdphil]

Seems like one solution to this problem would be to include the number of DNFs that occurred during the period in which each player's rating is calculated directly below their rating on their PDGA page. Also include it on their membership card. If I see that someone has a 1000 rating with 7 DNFs, I'm going to immediately question the legitimacy of that rating.

Also, give TDs the option to exclude players who have a certain number of "recent" DNFs for tournaments where you are qualified based on your rating or for tournaments where there are more players than openings. Having the DNFs included on the PDGA page and on the membership cards will make this fairly easy.

Thoughts?

 

[prerube]

Seems like one solution to this problem would be to include the number of DNFs that occurred during the period in which each player's rating is calculated directly below their rating on their PDGA page. Also include it on their membership card. If I see that someone has a 1000 rating with 7 DNFs, I'm going to immediately question the legitimacy of that rating.

Also, give TDs the option to exclude players who have a certain number of "recent" DNFs for tournaments where you are qualified based on your rating or for tournaments where there are more players than openings. Having the DNFs included on the PDGA page and on the membership cards will make this fairly easy.

Thoughts?

I like it, however there is always a "what if"

What if someone has a documented illness that causes them to leave tournaments frequently. They love playing and meeting new people, but 2 rounds is too much stress on their mind or body. If a TD denies them access their could be a lawsuit.

 

[burdphil]

I like it, however there is always a "what if"

What if someone has a documented illness that causes them to leave tournaments frequently. They love playing and meeting new people, but 2 rounds is too much stress on their mind or body. If a TD denies them access their could be a lawsuit.

There won't be a lawsuit if the PDGA membership agreement specifies that DNFs could potentially factor into your ability to qualify for larger events. The PDGA has the right to do that for events that they sanction I would think. As long as they are basing entry on specific performance-based indicators (i.e. ratings and DNFs) and not on race/religion/ugliness/etc., it would be extremely difficult to bring a case against them.

 

[scarpfish]

Seems like one solution to this problem would be to include the number of DNFs that occurred during the period in which each player's rating is calculated directly below their rating on their PDGA page. Also include it on their membership card. If I see that someone has a 1000 rating with 7 DNFs, I'm going to immediately question the legitimacy of that rating.

Also, give TDs the option to exclude players who have a certain number of "recent" DNFs for tournaments where you are qualified based on your rating or for tournaments where there are more players than openings. Having the DNFs included on the PDGA page and on the membership cards will make this fairly easy.

Thoughts?

Much like the very topic of this thread, its a solution in search of a problem.

FWIW, no TD has ever asked for my card.

 

[prerube]

There won't be a lawsuit if the PDGA membership agreement specifies that DNFs could potentially factor into your ability to qualify for larger events. The PDGA has the right to do that for events that they sanction I would think. As long as they are basing entry on specific performance-based indicators (i.e. ratings and DNFs) and not on race/religion/ugliness/etc., it would be extremely difficult to bring a case against them.

you can not tell someone they can not compete because a disability caused them to be unable to finish.

 

[burdphil]

you can not tell someone they can not compete because a disability caused them to be unable to finish.

Not a disability, a history of DNFs

As for TDs never asking to see PDGA cards, you have to keep in mind that this would only come into play for the large tournaments where you have to sign up beforehand and qualification is based on rating. For the vast majority of tournaments where all entrants are allowed, this would never be an issue.

 

[scarpfish]

Not a disability, a history of DNFs

As for TDs never asking to see PDGA cards, you have to keep in mind that this would only come into play for the large tournaments where you have to sign up beforehand and qualification is based on rating. For the vast majority of tournaments where all entrants are allowed, this would never be an issue.

And what tournaments would these be exactly?

 

[prerube]

Not a disability, a history of DNFs

As for TDs never asking to see PDGA cards, you have to keep in mind that this would only come into play for the large tournaments where you have to sign up beforehand and qualification is based on rating. For the vast majority of tournaments where all entrants are allowed, this would never be an issue.

The disability is the cause of the DNF's. but this hypothetical is a rare stretch

 

[burdphil]

And what tournaments would these be exactly?

Sorry, I thought part of this discussion was about players DNFing to protect their rating so they could still qualify for certain tournaments. If I misunderstood that, I apologize.

 

[burdphil]

The disability is the cause of the DNF's. but this hypothetical is a rare stretch

It just occurred to me that I should consider suing the Colts for not drafting me due to the fact that I am inherently slow and skinny...

 

[scarpfish]

Sorry, I thought part of this discussion was about players DNFing to protect their rating so they could still qualify for certain tournaments. If I misunderstood that, I apologize.

To my knowledge, no such ratings minimum tournaments exist. These players DNF to protect their rating because the specifications of their sponsorship from a disc equipment company are usually dependent upon a minimum rating. The PDGA has no say in those matters, therefore it is not their job to police them.

The sponsors are the ones spending cash and equipment on these players. Let them deal with their malcontents as they may.

 

[burdphil]

To my knowledge, no such ratings minimum tournaments exist. These players DNF to protect their rating because the specifications of their sponsorship from a disc equipment company are usually dependent upon a minimum rating. The PDGA has no say in those matters, therefore it is not their job to police them.

The sponsors are the ones spending cash and equipment on these players. Let them deal with their malcontents as they may.

That seems to fly in the face of this post from the first page of this thread...

Not the only ones. The big problem is in Europe and a few events in the U.S. (with more going this way) where they use rating minimum step changes to determine who can register for events. The number of events and field sizes are limited compared with the growth of the sport in Europe. A higher rating helps get you in the event. I get a steady stream of emails from Europeans to find a solution to this DNF problem where pros protect their ratings. Beaver State Fling going on right now also uses rating minimums for initial registrations.

 

[garublador]

To my knowledge, no such ratings minimum tournaments exist. These players DNF to protect their rating because the specifications of their sponsorship from a disc equipment company are usually dependent upon a minimum rating. The PDGA has no say in those matters, therefore it is not their job to police them.

The sponsors are the ones spending cash and equipment on these players. Let them deal with their malcontents as they may.

I agree with that, but people who are IMO credible were able to give specific examples of tournaments like this earlier in the thread. It's the reason Chuck gave for the PDGA looking into it at all.

you can not tell someone they can not compete because a disability caused them to be unable to finish.

That doesn't even sound a little true. The number of examples that anyone can come up with to show that isn't true is staggering. I'll just give one, you have to be able to complete any given event to qualify for the US Olympic team. They aren't obligated to allow someone who can only run 50M to enter the 100M dash. Most people who can run 100M won't make it on the US team. They base it on performance, not first come first serve.

 

[scarpfish]

That seems to fly in the face of this post from the first page of this thread...

The big problem is in Europe and a few events in the U.S. (with more going this way) where they use rating minimum step changes to determine who can register for events. The number of events and field sizes are limited compared with the growth of the sport in Europe. A higher rating helps get you in the event. I get a steady stream of emails from Europeans to find a solution to this DNF problem where pros protect their ratings. Beaver State Fling going on right now also uses rating minimums for initial registrations.

Its files in the face because its a matter that we don't have to deal with 99.9% of the time. Sounds like Europe needs more tournaments.

I'd also say that the solution to their problem would be using the PDGA points system rather than a ratings minimum. If a player DNF's in a tournament, regardless of whether its two holes into the first round, or 17 holes into the last, they get a big fat zilch.

 

[burdphil]

The big problem is in Europe and a few events in the U.S. (with more going this way) where they use rating minimum step changes to determine who can register for events. The number of events and field sizes are limited compared with the growth of the sport in Europe. A higher rating helps get you in the event. I get a steady stream of emails from Europeans to find a solution to this DNF problem where pros protect their ratings. Beaver State Fling going on right now also uses rating minimums for initial registrations.

Its files in the face because its a matter that we don't have to deal with 99.9% of the time. Sounds like Europe needs more tournaments.

I'd also say that the solution to their problem would be using the PDGA points system rather than a ratings minimum. If a player DNF's in a tournament, regardless of whether its two holes into the first round, or 17 holes into the last, they get a big fat zilch.

That's a completely separate issue though, isn't it? This thread is about what to do to prevent players from DNFing to protect their ratings, not about using ratings vs. points for tournament selection...

 

[Cgkdisc]

Separate from the "min ratings for reg" issue in Europe, the fact remains that most of the time, the player is tanking the rest of the round or DNFing because they are playing poorly. So including some sort of rating penalty for pros only, if they do this, seems appropriate and a potential deterrent.

 

[zenbot]

Why wouldn't you just use the same rule for missed holes at the start of play?

If a player is not present to throw when it is his or her turn, the scorekeeper shall allow 30 seconds. If the player has not thrown after the 30 seconds has elapsed, a score of par plus four is to be entered for that hole. This procedure continues on any subsequent holes for which a player is absent. No holes shall be replayed. If a complete round is missed, or if a player does not finish a round, the player may, at the discretion of the director, be disqualified.

 

[scarpfish]

That's a completely separate issue though, isn't it? This thread is about what to do to prevent players from DNFing to protect their ratings, not about using ratings vs. points for tournament selection...

If they're DNF'ing to protect a rating to make a minimum rating standard for a tournament then doing so is a concern. If they're doing it for some other reason, then I don't see what the issue is.

Granted, neither a ratings or points system is going to distinguish people who DNF repeatedly due to nagging chronic injury, versus those who do it because they're having a bad day. Until we find a way to make that distinction that isn't overly burdensome, I'd rather give the quitters the benefit of the doubt, so we can let the legitimately injured play as long as they can hold up.

 

[DiscChainBasket18]

tiny fiddle playing

That's avoiding the issue. Yes, I usually side with the idea if you want to play register early. One of my buddies didn't have the money during early registration and wanted to sign up later but the event was full and he wasn't able to get in. Then comes the start of the event, a player gets a 7 on their 2nd hole of the first round and walks off the course. Meanwhile my buddy is sitting on the sideline, while this DB just quits. It's not a perfect system, and there's no straightforward solution to it.

Not avoiding the issue. Your buddy didnt have the money? Bank account empty? Could'nt your 'buddy' borrow the money from you or from another 'buddy'? No job? Wah! Cry me a river.