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Wisconsin to Iowa

Green Aarrow

Par Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2011
Messages
110
Location
Fox Cities
I'm heading west for the G&L Clothing Challenge in Des Moines and I'll have some time on the way there and back to check out courses. Are there any in the Dubuque or Cedar Rapids area considered must-play, or is it more worthwhile to hit up everything in Des Moines?

Thanks!
 
The Dubuque course is good; too lazy to look it up; but, it's the one listed as Dubuque.

Dubuque Veteran's Memorial Park is very good. The layout is a little funky in a couple spots and some of the tee pads are not great, but overall, it's a very fun and tough course. Well worth playing.:thmbup:
 
Cedar rapids area is great, go out of your way for Wildcat, it's worth it. Shaver and Legion are both very good, navigation might be an issue. Iowa City is great, peninsula, sugar and turkey are all worth the stop. Des Moines is solid, can't go wrong there, let the reviews guide you. Have fun at the Challenge, I loved it last year. I haven't completely made up my mind if I'm going this year, probably not though.
 
I agree with Martin (except I think Peninsula is nothing special). I have not played Des Moines, but I did a trip visiting all the 3+ rated courses on the NE side of the state. Wildcat & Camden II were far and away my favorites. Sugar Bottom followed next.

Avoid Waterloo Exchange (rated 3.95) unless you like long wide open courses with very poor navigation.

Jones Park in Cedar Rapids (3.38) is pretty boring too - it is on a big hill, so you are playing lots of uphill throws and several fun downhill throws - 17 being the highlight....but a very skippable course.

West Lake Park (4.47) is quite overrated IMO. The great/memorable holes make it worth the visit, but they do not make up for a lot of ho-hum filler holes.
 
West Lake is one of my favorite courses ever played....just to add a different perspective on that one.
 
if you end up playing in cedar rapids give me a holler, i'll be more than happy to shoot a round or two with you should my schedule allow
 
West Lake is one of my favorite courses ever played....just to add a different perspective on that one.

Agree.

How anyone could rate West Lake lower than Sugar Bottom is really a mystery. Sugar is a nice course, but...seriously? Trying to think of what Dave242 could be calling "filler holes" at WL...not coming up with much. Sometimes people complain about 10 and 11, but even those are mildly interesting shots IMO. Dave, you could even skip those 2 and still have a 22-hole course filled with sheer awesomeness and joy, every single tee shot is a different combination of wind, water, treelines, elevation. Many exciting tests of fear and courage.

Also Wildcat Bluff, as noted by others, is a can't miss.
 
Trying to think of what Dave242 could be calling "filler holes" at WL...not coming up with much. Sometimes people complain about 10 and 11, but even those are mildly interesting shots IMO. Dave, you could even skip those 2 and still have a 22-hole course filled with sheer awesomeness and joy, every single tee shot is a different combination of wind, water, treelines, elevation. Many exciting tests of fear and courage.

IMO, these are the holes that are "filler holes":
4, 6, 9, 10, 11, 15, 16, 21, 22, 23
Not that you can't have fun on filler holes, but these holes do not have the intrigue and/or clench factor that a 4.5 rated course should have. On most of them you will score exactly the same for a very bad drive as you would for an OK drive....and that is not good disc golf. Great disc golf courses should be great at testing disc golf skills (and punishing for a lack thereof).

I used "filler holes" as kind of shorthand, and discussing West Lake was not my main point. But since you ask, I will expound. I also used it in the sense of playing through (or very close to) other park activities - filler as i the sense of not disc golf exclusive. These holes and more do that:
1, 3, 8, 9, 10, 11, 14, 20, 24....and many of the water holes have lots of fishing going on I believe.

A couple of other knocks on the course that I think lower the rating (hence making the rating over-rated in my mind):
1) All the water shots have the water on the right
2) Many holes are in a length that are not good for scoring spread nor for creating scoring fun/euphoria. Some of this is PDGA fact and some of my opinion is based on me and my preferences (that's who I rate things for....as ratings are an opinion and it would be pretty presumptuous of me to think I could speak for anyone else).
 
IMO, these are the holes that are "filler holes":
4, 6, 9, 10, 11, 15, 16, 21, 22, 23
Not that you can't have fun on filler holes, but these holes do not have the intrigue and/or clench factor that a 4.5 rated course should have. On most of them you will score exactly the same for a very bad drive as you would for an OK drive....and that is not good disc golf. Great disc golf courses should be great at testing disc golf skills (and punishing for a lack thereof).

Having played Maple Hill, Diamond X, Seneca Creek, and other similarly rated courses, I think there is arguably higher clench factor with the wind and water at West Lake than any of those. Not knocking any of those, they have other great features that West Lake doesn't have (DG-only, for example).

Wow it is amazing, the differences in the way people see disc golf holes. I am not trying to change your mind Dave, just presenting a different perspective.

IMO hole 23 is one of the top 5 disc golf holes of about 100 courses I have played. I have seen it deuced (rare!) and even if you have the distance (I don't) that takes some serious balls to go for it on that drive with the extreme water hazard, the pin within 30 ft of water on 2 sides. It is a very tough 3, and even to get a 3 the clench factor on that approach is unmistakeable, throwing a 100-150ft upshot downhill with water straight behind. Very easy to end up with a 5, and even worse with a double circle on a windy day.

On 21 if you have a big arm you get the clench factor on the tee shot with water straight behind, shorter drives have a ridiculous clench factor on a left-to-right dogleg approach to a narrow band of green with water on the left. That is an outrageous shot especially if you don't have a LHBH or RHFH skill.

On 16 it is OB road all along the left (pretend its water on the left if you are concerned about the left/right OB balance).

Even hole 4, a short downhill with water straight behind, could be easily deuced by a most people, but it has serious overthrow and rollaway risk for a circle 4 which I have seen numerous times.

Having played the course over 100 times (and lost maybe as many discs to the water) I certainly have seen plenty of scoring spread for very bad drives! :eek:

Here are some PDGA data if you would like to check scoring spread:
http://www.pdga.com/tournament_results/15543

Pros scoring spread 79-96 (round 3)
Advanced Men scoring spread 83-109 (round 2)

Another factor which probably contributes to the scoring spread goes beyond the individual holes, to the grueling overall challenge of playing all 24 holes on a 10000ft+ course with significant elevation. It is incredibly difficult to maintain a high level of play through an entire round on that course, with all the changing wind conditions and water hazards. That overall challenge, beyond evaluating individual holes, has definitely contributed to its high rating in the DGCR reviews.



I used "filler holes" as kind of shorthand, and discussing West Lake was not my main point. But since you ask, I will expound. I also used it in the sense of playing through (or very close to) other park activities - filler as i the sense of not disc golf exclusive.

I agree about the interface with other park activities -- that is a totally legitimate knock a lot of people have with the course. I understand different people might put different weights on that, in how they rate a course. I play it most in the early a.m. or in cold weather, for this reason. The few times I have tried to play it in prime-time (other than tourneys) the other park activities have affected the fun factor, so I can see that could have been an issue on the day you played it.

Anyway, thanks for expounding, we obviously have different perspectives, but I hope to see you at West Lake to play the Rumble on July 14-15!
 
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Dave likes to be able to score on a course and doesn't necessarily think a beat down is a good thing all by itself.

Except for a fisherman or two, I've never had any interference troubles there; and so my opinion on that is that it's not much of a factor. Plus, when it takes 3+ hours to play a round; doesn't much matter to me if I have to take a break on one hole to wait for a fisherman; or skip a hole.
 
Dave likes to be able to score on a course and doesn't necessarily think a beat down is a good thing all by itself.

Except for a fisherman or two, I've never had any interference troubles there; and so my opinion on that is that it's not much of a factor. Plus, when it takes 3+ hours to play a round; doesn't much matter to me if I have to take a break on one hole to wait for a fisherman; or skip a hole.


I understand he has a different perspective and that is fine, everybody is so entitled. However I do disagree with what he characterizes as "filler holes" and I think he is demonstrably wrong about scoring spread.
 
Just to be clear: I do not think West Lake is a bad course....I think it is a really good course, a fun course, a unique course, a challenging course. It is pushing towards a 4.0 in my book. To be in the 4.5 range, it really needs to be special with very few design shortcomings.....which is not the case with West Lake.

IMO hole 23 is one of the top 5 disc golf holes of about 100 courses I have played. I have seen it deuced (rare!) and even if you have the distance (I don't) that takes some serious balls to go for it on that drive with the extreme water hazard, the pin within 30 ft of water on 2 sides. It is a very tough 3, and even to get a 3 the clench factor on that approach is unmistakeable, throwing a 100-150ft upshot downhill with water straight behind. Very easy to end up with a 5, and even worse with a double circle on a windy day.

An open 565' hole is not a good length for Gold level players (and 407' and open is not good for Blue or white). It is a tweener hole.

On 21 if you have a big arm you get the clench factor on the tee shot with water straight behind, shorter drives have a ridiculous clench factor on a left-to-right dogleg approach to a narrow band of green with water on the left. That is an outrageous shot especially if you don't have a LHBH or RHFH skill.

I'm not sure why I put 21 as a filler hole.......not the long tee! Long tee is a really good hole. I also whiffed on 21 as the water is on the left....and I said all the water holes have water on the right.

I am not thrilled with the short pad though. 495' downhill (probably 25' loss of elevation makes it 420' equivalent). This is not a good length for Blue or White. I think it is a filler or transition sort of hole....just to move you along the course rather than to test your DG skills.

Here are some PDGA data if you would like to check scoring spread:
http://www.pdga.com/tournament_results/15543

Pros scoring spread 79-96 (round 3)
Advanced Men scoring spread 83-109 (round 2)

Maybe you understand what scoring spread is....but from what you write it appears you don't. I will not try to expound on the definition, but I will say that the Eastern IA courses I played seemed to have a lot of tweener holes....holes that will have a very small percentage of birdies and bogeys and a huge percentage of pars.


One other thing - you talk about wind a lot. Looking at the data here http://lwf.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/online/ccd/avgwind.html, it does look like eastern IA is a little above average. Eastern IA looks like in the summer the average wind is around 9.5-10 mph. The average for continental US is 8.8. I do not see how wind is a factor due to the small variance to what most DGers play with and the fact that everyone is playing the course (and the wind) at the same time in tournament play.
 
Maybe you understand what scoring spread is....but from what you write it appears you don't. I will not try to expound on the definition, but I will say that the Eastern IA courses I played seemed to have a lot of tweener holes....holes that will have a very small percentage of birdies and bogeys and a huge percentage of pars.

Unless you played each hole multiple times yourself, or collected data from a tournament on each hole, the only basis for this comment is PDGA guidelines. Clearly that is an oversimplification.

Here are some real data. Note that hole 19 was short tee (there was no long tee at that time), and also these data are only for pros.

RCR '07 Results - PRO MEN


Hole 1
2's 2
3's 24
4's 27 -- (avg 3.68 )
5's 5
6's 2

Hole 2
2's 18
3's 31 -- (avg 2.98 )
4's 6
5's 4
6's 1

Hole 3
3's 18
4's 32 -- (avg 3.88 )
5's 9
6's 1

Hole 4
2's 14
3's 38 -- (avg 2.90 )
4's 8

Hole 5
3's 2
4's 23
5's 17 -- (avg 4.97 )
6's 12
7's 5
8's 1

Hole 6
2's 9
3's 40 -- (avg 3.05 )
4's 10
5's 1

Hole 7
2's 24
3's 33 -- (avg 2.65 )
4's 3

Hole 8
2's 9
3's 34 -- (avg 3.17 )
4's 15
5's 2

Hole 9
2's 30
3's 30 -- (u can do it)

Hole 10
2's 34 -- (avg 2.45 )
3's 25
4's 1

Hole 11
2's 10
3's 47 -- (avg 2.88 )
4's 3

Hole 12
2's 1
3's 26
4's 30 -- (avg 3.58 )
5's 3

Hole 13
4's 21
5's 28 -- (avg 4.95 )
6's 5
7's 5
8's 1

Hole 14
3's 30
4's 23 -- (avg 3.63 )
5's 6
6's 1

Hole 15
4's 26
5's 24 -- (avg 4.77 )
6's 8
7's 2

Hole 16
2's 2
3's 27
4's 27 -- (avg 3.55 )
5's 4

Hole 17
2's 11
3's 41 -- (avg 2.95 )
4's 8

Hole 18
3's 1
4's 5
5's 31 -- (avg 5.33 )
6's 19
7's 4

Hole 19 - n/a relocated
2's 31
3's 18 -- (avg 2.75 )
4's 8
5's 1
6's 2

Hole 20
3's 10
4's 21 -- (avg 4.40 )
5's 25
6's 3
7's 1

Hole 21
3's 10
4's 24 -- (avg 4.40 )
5's 18
6's 8

Hole 22
2's 23
3's 28 -- (avg 2.83 )
4's 5
5's 4

Hole 23
3's 29
4's 22 -- (avg 3.68 )
5's 8
6's 1

Hole 24
3's 14
4's 39 -- (avg 3.88 )
5's 7

Avg Round = 86

http://iowadg.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2597&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=45
 
Thanks for digging up this data! Good stuff. Looks like it is from this event and it looks like they combined MPO rounds 1 & 3.

One issue I see is that there are a lot of MPO players with ratings below 975. Granted ratings listed are current to today (5 years later), but 12 of 30 players are not Gold level players based on their ratings today (40% of the field). I cannot imagine that is far off from the mix at the time of theevent though since some ratings go up over time and others go down a little. This large spread in ability artificially increases the scoring spread stats we are after.

I flagged these holes as filler holes: 4, 6, 9, 10, 11, 15, 16, 22, 23. Let's see how they do even based on a less than ideal demographic.

Hole 4
2's 14
3's 38 -- (avg 2.90 ) - 63% the same score (not good spread)
4's 8

Hole 6
2's 9
3's 40 -- (avg 3.05 ) - 67% the same score (not good spread)
4's 10
5's 1

Hole 7
2's 24
3's 33 -- (avg 2.65 ) - 55% the same score (OK spread). See what a 342' hole can do for Gold players?
4's 3

Hole 9
2's 30
3's 30 -- (u can do it) - 50% the same score (OK spread). A 315' hole (guessing 360' effective length)

Hole 10
2's 34 -- (avg 2.45 ) - 57% the same score (mediocre spread)
3's 25
4's 1

Hole 11
2's 10
3's 47 -- (avg 2.88 ) - 78% the same score (bad spread)
4's 3

Hole 15
4's 26
5's 24 -- (avg 4.77 ) - decent spread on this hole, but you want more than this on a 3-throw hole. 856' pretty wide open is not an exciting/intriguing/fun hole. I'm surprised by how high the score are - was there extra OB added?
6's 8
7's 2

Hole 16
2's 2
3's 27
4's 27 -- (avg 3.55 ) - decent spread, but at 437' it seems like there must have been something else going on for scores to be this high
5's 4

Hole 22
2's 23
3's 28 -- (avg 2.83 ) - 47% the same score (decent spread). 365' pretty open.
4's 5
5's 4

Hole 23
3's 29
4's 22 -- (avg 3.68 ) - 48% the same score (OK spread), but on a 565' 2-throw hole you ideally want a lot more spread than that
5's 8
6's 1

So, on 6 of the 9 holes I think are filler holes, the scoring spread bears that out. And, there are other reasons I feel the others are nothing too special for a 4.5 rated course (rated 31st best in the country - 10+ reviews).
 
So, on 6 of the 9 holes I think are filler holes, the scoring spread bears that out. And, there are other reasons I feel the others are nothing too special for a 4.5 rated course (rated 31st best in the country - 10+ reviews).

I guess it depends on what you call "filler", to me that term has more to it than just "less than ideal scoring spread".

The scoring spread is a point we agree on, at least now that I know your definition of "huge percentage" is anything over 60. Anyway thanks for the comments, hope to see you at the course one day.
 
Do you consider disc golf a game or a sport?

If DG is a sport that means competition is central. And competition is a test - a test of skill. A good DG course therefore needs to be good at testing a wide range of real DG skills.

The vast majority of DGCR Forum users think it is a sport.

The reason I believe that scoring spread is the most important part of a good DG hole is that it indicates that skill is being tested and lack of skill is being punished (with the exception of holes that by design induce a higher than acceptable level of luck/randomness). Designers should try hard to provide this sort of a test as their primary goal (while also incorporating all the other elements that go into making an appealing course).

A filler hole is a hole that provides no test but transitions the competitor from a hole that produces a good test to another hole that produces a good test. From a scoring perspective, if the hole does not provide a good separation of scores based on skill, why play it since it does basically nothing in determining the outcome of the competition?

Now, from a recreational or aesthetics point of view there are certainly other very valid components as to what defines a "filler hole". But since DGCR users think of DG as a sport, those do not carry nearly as much weight here.
 
Hole = Scoring Spread
1 = 3.19
2 = 3.26
3 = 2.86
4 = 2.45
5 = 4.20
6 = 2.51
7 = 2.33
8 = 2.90
9 = 2.00
10 = 2.13
11 = 1.90
12 = 2.53
13 = 3.34
14 = 2.75
15 = 3.04
16 = 2.75
17 = 2.32
18 = 3.19
19 = 3.17
20 = 3.49
21 = 3.65
22 = 3.04
23 = 2.88
24 = 2.39
 

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