Boycott the USDGC?

[MNcyclone]

Innova realized something very important. Pros don't make them money. Pros make themselves money. Pros require plastic and entries and then they go out and make themselves money. Innova wants to make Innova money, not some snarky pros.

Ams spend money. Ams buy wraiths by the dozens. Ams lose discs by the dozens and come back and buy some more. For every pro there are 100 Ams making Innova money. Money that Innova hands over to pros for no good reason.

Who cares if pros boycott the event? The only pros I care about are the ones whose names indicate different disc molds. If they don't indicate a special mold, then they get acetoned off my discs (looking at you formerly Feldturd Boss).

In the end, who sells discs? Does the Nuke sell out inventories because some sponsored DB throws them or because some noname local hunyuck throws them 400' at the local course? Ditch your sponsored pros Innova, screw them out of their precious USDGC, make more money and make more molds, get fat and rich off of Am dollars.

 

[turbosteve]

My hope for Rock Hill is that more family will travel with the AM competitors, so it won't be a big change.

If it is a big drop, maybe that will be a proving point for "destination tourneys" like the USDGC getting more sponsorship from the Chambers of Commerce and local municipalities.

The city of Rock Hill does sponsor the USDGC. I don't think there will be more family members simply because there won't be as many players in the field.

 

[juju]

Knew this was gonna happen about 5 years ago. I can understand both sides of the debate, and whatever your opinion, this definitely shows we are not gonna make it 'big' anytime soon.

Go out and play, have fun, and forget about the things you have no control over.

 

[Scirocco]

Thanks for your input, Buddha. :clap:

 

[harr0140]

from 17:46 on is really worth watching. there is just a gap between the top touring pros and the reality of disc golf's financial situation.

Nail on the Head . . . Im not saying that pros cant be upset (it does effect them and they are entitled to their opinions. . . but they shouldnt try and make other boycott because of the decision . . . it is not their decision to make).

Golf tourneys lose sponsorship all the time, purses change, and so do the pros who go there . . . look at the British Open week when there is another PGA tourney . . . can they compete on the same level as the british open . . . heck no, but they can provide a big stage for some of those players who dont make it to the Open, and they still have substantial sponsorhship etc.

Unfortunately the top pros who are compaining about this seem to be primarily concerned with the financial impact on their wallets (not saying they can't be upset, but to say the event is worthless is wrong IMO) . . . I do understand the other impacts that the new format diminishes their wins in the big picture, but it isn't the end of the world, they did still earn their wins under the old format . . . it will have an asterick with it any future years where it is handicapped. The record books will say something different (Like in the NBA when the 3 point line was instituted) . . .***pre handicap format***

 

[juju]

You are welcome. I believe in Karma. If the good is sown, the good is collected. When positive things are made, that returns well.

 

[TonyAPE12]

\
In the end, who sells discs? Does the Nuke sell out inventories because some sponsored DB throws them or because some noname local hunyuck throws them 400' at the local course? Ditch your sponsored pros Innova, screw them out of their precious USDGC, make more money and make more molds, get fat and rich off of Am dollars.

You're thinking is flawed in that what attracts ams to a certain disc in the first place is that a sponsored pro throws it, so Nukes sell out because of said DB. This is just one example, and I know it's pretty extreme, but I personally carry all but maybe two of the molds that Eric Mccabe throws and that's it. Now, I understand that ams should start with slower, more understable plastic, which I did, but when you stop and ask what it's going to take to get better, you look at what the pros are throwing and you try to copy that. My point is that the fact that a disc has a pros name on it is what sells it on some level. I bet star destroyer sales grew tremendously after Avery's name was put on them...

For the people who are going and are getting upset that people are saying they don't want to see ams play, do you want to watch people of your calibre play? I want to play Winthrop Gold at the USDGC, but I haven't earned it, and one weekend where you were able to shave 3-5 strokes off your "projected" score is nothing compared to something like placing top 3 overall to qualify as was the case in previous years. I am excited about the potential of some ams shooting amazing rounds at Winthrop, but at the same time, it's not like watching the top 10 in the world play it...

I'm disappointed in the change too, but it is what it is. I hope that the ams that do play learn a lot and maybe will be there playing in the true USDGC someday. However, this year it's just not going to be the same...Another reason why I don't throw Innova plastic...

 

[scarpfish]

You're thinking is flawed in that what attracts ams to a certain disc in the first place is that a sponsored pro throws it, so Nukes sell out because of said DB.

Look at your years of playing experience compared to his. In our obscure sport, the latest and greatest warp speed drivers sell to the average joe's precisely because they're advertised as the hot new thing, not because of some pro's name was on it. Anyone who's been playing disc golf long enough will tell you that this trend has been repeated over and over as each hot new "must have" mold has come out.

This is just one example, and I know it's pretty extreme, but I personally carry all but maybe two of the molds that Eric Mccabe throws and that's it.

So is that working for you?

Now, I understand that ams should start with slower, more understable plastic, which I did, but when you stop and ask what it's going to take to get better, you look at what the pros are throwing and you try to copy that.

Only if you're an athlete worshiper. Even many of the pros whose names are on your discs would not recommend any beginner throw what they throw. Its about the archer and not his arrows.

My point is that the fact that a disc has a pros name on it is what sells it on some level.

In an established sport where athletes get a lot of media pub, perhaps, not so much in one grown almost solely off grassroots efforts where most casual players don't even know who the top players in their sport are.

I bet star destroyer sales grew tremendously after Avery's name was put on them...

Innova would have to confirm the numbers, but I'd say any uptick was minimal compared to the buzz Destroyers had when they first came out in '07. By the time the AJ signature Star Destroyer had come out, it had been replaced by the Boss as the "must have" Innova driver.

Whose signature is on the Nuke? Yeah, I thought so.

 

[Three Putt]

Disc golf has had a problem all along in that it developed upside-down. Frisbee sports developed from a marketing idea at Wham-O that the Frisbee could be transitioned from the sales boom and bust that is the toy market to the sporting goods market, which offered more stable long-term sales for the company. To do that, Wham-O created the International Frisbee Association (paid for out of the Wham-O marketing budget) and propped up a bunch of events financially where professional Frisbee players (many of them on the IFA payroll) would compete for Wham-O's money. From the outside, it looked like a legitimate sports phenomenon. In reality it was a house of cards balanced on Wham-O's checkbook.

We come from that. The original PDGA was set up just like the IFA because it was set up by the same guy who created the IFA. Ed Headrick was the marketing guy behind the IFA and the professional Frisbee players he propped up with IFA events were the players he brought in to play in the early PDGA events. Because of that, there was "professional" disc golf before there was amateur disc golf. Upside-down.

So, what happened? Well you had cool things like the $50,000 Huntington Beach tournament in 1979, but the model was not sustainable. Wham-O was bought out, the new company had no interest in throwing money at Frisbee freaks, the IFA was shut down and Frisbee sports had to find a new path without their cash cow.

Ed Headrick realized the gig was up and turned the PDGA over to the players. Those players were the same IFA guys that just had the rug pulled out from underneath them. The course they set the PDGA on, the course disc golf is still following, was to go on like disc golf was a viable professional sport and wait for the next cash cow to come along. The fact that disc golf wasn't then and isn't now a viable professional sport didn't and doesn't seem to matter. That was in '83-'84, somewhere around there. So for the last 27 or 28 years we have been having this same ridiculous conversation that we are "right there," and any second now disc golf is going to hit the big time on somebody else's money.

The problem with that is A) it's not happening and B) players buy into the dream and get disillusioned when it doesn't happen. It's been the ongoing cycle, and it's nothing new. It might seem worse now, but it's nothing new. It's been going on for almost 30 years now.

The USDGC is a smaller version of the same thing the IFA was. It's a money suckhole propped up on Innova's checkbook. They obviously bit down on the dream when they started it and thought that Coke or some other big $$$ company would have picked the event up off their checkbook by now. It didn't happen. Now they are re-thinking the event and their financial commitment to it, and everyone is screaming that they are taking something away from us. What it really shows is that we were not nearly ready for it when they gave it to us, and the dream is still as far away as it was 27 years ago.

The whole idea of disc golf sustaining a touring group of professional players is absurd. The only reason people don't see it as absurd is because it's been going on for so long. When you really look at the money, it's not there. Not anywhere close. We have a long, long way to go before we can support touring pros. It sucks if you are really good and have bit down on the PDGA dream, but the reality is that it's a mirage.

 

[#19325]

Simple solution. Best of both worlds. Run the Am weekend prior to main event. Charge the same entry fee the pros pay and give then an awesome player pack. Fill the tournament and pay your staff. If you do it right it should top the experience of the USADGC Discraft runs.

I still wonder in my mind if the Ford Explorer with Mary Jane caused a quick decision to make the change.

 

[TonyAPE12]

Look at your years of playing experience compared to his. In our obscure sport, the latest and greatest warp speed drivers sell to the average joe's precisely because they're advertised as the hot new thing, not because of some pro's name was on it. Anyone who's been playing disc golf long enough will tell you that this trend has been repeated over and over as each hot new "must have" mold has come out.

Years of playing has nothing to do with it. It's simple marketing, which I will be a senior in college studying. Yes, they market the discs as the hot new thing, but the fact that it's endorsed by a top pro helps the product sell more.

So is that working for you?

Actually it is. It's helped me simplify a lot of things and get more control. No, I can't throw a force 500', but 400' is treating me pretty good right now.

Only if you're an athlete worshiper. Even many of the pros whose names are on your discs would not recommend any beginner throw what they throw. Its about the archer and not his arrows.

Baseball players pick up the newest bat that was used in top notch college programs around the country the year before. People want Nike golf clubs because Tiger uses them. Does this apply to all golfers? Of course not, but it does boost the numbers.

In an established sport where athletes get a lot of media pub, perhaps, not so much in one grown almost solely off grassroots efforts where most casual players don't even know who the top players in their sport are.

Fair enough. I probably underestimate how many "rec" players their are. But anyone who starts out in this sport and works to develop their game at a younger age looks for signatures on a disc thinking that's what they need.

Innova would have to confirm the numbers, but I'd say any uptick was minimal compared to the buzz Destroyers had when they first came out in '07. By the time the AJ signature Star Destroyer had come out, it had been replaced by the Boss as the "must have" Innova driver.

Whose signature is on the Nuke? Yeah, I thought so.

And you're point? I'm not the one who brought up a Nuke in the first place.
Sounds like someone really needs to chill out...

____

 

[bikinjack]

I would like to know how much the Ford Explorer into the pond with Mary Jane weighed into the decision. Seemed like a knee jerk reaction last fall.

I still wonder in my mind if the Ford Explorer with Mary Jane caused a quick decision to make the change.

I think the decision had been made well before that point.

I'm under the impression that it's monetary decision. I've heard that Innova spent upwards of $300k on the USDGC last year with very little tangible return. The decision, while unpopular, won't cost them as much, and will provide not much less return.

Also, I think Three Putt nailed it.

 

[Sean Johnson]

Disc golf has had a problem all along in that it developed upside-down. Frisbee sports developed from a marketing idea at Wham-O that the Frisbee could be transitioned from the sales boom and bust that is the toy market to the sporting goods market, which offered more stable long-term sales for the company. To do that, Wham-O created the International Frisbee Association (paid for out of the Wham-O marketing budget) and propped up a bunch of events financially where professional Frisbee players (many of them on the IFA payroll) would compete for Wham-O's money. From the outside, it looked like a legitimate sports phenomenon. In reality it was a house of cards balanced on Wham-O's checkbook.

We come from that. The original PDGA was set up just like the IFA because it was set up by the same guy who created the IFA. Ed Headrick was the marketing guy behind the IFA and the professional Frisbee players he propped up with IFA events were the players he brought in to play in the early PDGA events. Because of that, there was "professional" disc golf before there was amateur disc golf. Upside-down.

So, what happened? Well you had cool things like the $50,000 Huntington Beach tournament in 1979, but the model was not sustainable. Wham-O was bought out, the new company had no interest in throwing money at Frisbee freaks, the IFA was shut down and Frisbee sports had to find a new path without their cash cow.

Ed Headrick realized the gig was up and turned the PDGA over to the players. Those players were the same IFA guys that just had the rug pulled out from underneath them. The course they set the PDGA on, the course disc golf is still following, was to go on like disc golf was a viable professional sport and wait for the next cash cow to come along. The fact that disc golf wasn't then and isn't now a viable professional sport didn't and doesn't seem to matter. That was in '83-'84, somewhere around there. So for the last 27 or 28 years we have been having this same ridiculous conversation that we are "right there," and any second now disc golf is going to hit the big time on somebody else's money.

The problem with that is A) it's not happening and B) players buy into the dream and get disillusioned when it doesn't happen. It's been the ongoing cycle, and it's nothing new. It might seem worse now, but it's nothing new. It's been going on for almost 30 years now.

The USDGC is a smaller version of the same thing the IFA was. It's a money suckhole propped up on Innova's checkbook. They obviously bit down on the dream when they started it and thought that Coke or some other big $$$ company would have picked the event up off their checkbook by now. It didn't happen. Now they are re-thinking the event and their financial commitment to it, and everyone is screaming that they are taking something away from us. What it really shows is that we were not nearly ready for it when they gave it to us, and the dream is still as far away as it was 27 years ago.

The whole idea of disc golf sustaining a touring group of professional players is absurd. The only reason people don't see it as absurd is because it's been going on for so long. When you really look at the money, it's not there. Not anywhere close. We have a long, long way to go before we can support touring pros. It sucks if you are really good and have bit down on the PDGA dream, but the reality is that it's a mirage.

:thmbup:

 

[MNcyclone]

On APE's comments, I'm sorry rank got pulled, that should be reserved for trolls, I apologize. As to marketing concerns, do you think that the disc is propped up by the pro, or that the pro is propped up by the disc? If you were to walk in to a shop and see twelve discs without a sig and one that said "MNcyclone signature cyclone", wouldn't it have the same affect on you as a Doss sig? It is just a repackaging of a product, and I am willing to bet that if the AJ destroyer where marketed as a destroyer X it would sell exactly the same. Apparently so is Innova, because they have chosen their product over their pros in regards to the USDGC.

Three Putt, you nailed it. Fantastic write up.

 

[atl scott]

Disc golf has had a problem all along in that it developed upside-down. Frisbee sports developed from a marketing idea at Wham-O that the Frisbee could be transitioned from the sales boom and bust that is the toy market to the sporting goods market, which offered more stable long-term sales for the company. To do that, Wham-O created the International Frisbee Association (paid for out of the Wham-O marketing budget) and propped up a bunch of events financially where professional Frisbee players (many of them on the IFA payroll) would compete for Wham-O's money. From the outside, it looked like a legitimate sports phenomenon. In reality it was a house of cards balanced on Wham-O's checkbook.

We come from that. The original PDGA was set up just like the IFA because it was set up by the same guy who created the IFA. Ed Headrick was the marketing guy behind the IFA and the professional Frisbee players he propped up with IFA events were the players he brought in to play in the early PDGA events. Because of that, there was "professional" disc golf before there was amateur disc golf. Upside-down.

So, what happened? Well you had cool things like the $50,000 Huntington Beach tournament in 1979, but the model was not sustainable. Wham-O was bought out, the new company had no interest in throwing money at Frisbee freaks, the IFA was shut down and Frisbee sports had to find a new path without their cash cow.

Ed Headrick realized the gig was up and turned the PDGA over to the players. Those players were the same IFA guys that just had the rug pulled out from underneath them. The course they set the PDGA on, the course disc golf is still following, was to go on like disc golf was a viable professional sport and wait for the next cash cow to come along. The fact that disc golf wasn't then and isn't now a viable professional sport didn't and doesn't seem to matter. That was in '83-'84, somewhere around there. So for the last 27 or 28 years we have been having this same ridiculous conversation that we are "right there," and any second now disc golf is going to hit the big time on somebody else's money.

The problem with that is A) it's not happening and B) players buy into the dream and get disillusioned when it doesn't happen. It's been the ongoing cycle, and it's nothing new. It might seem worse now, but it's nothing new. It's been going on for almost 30 years now.

The USDGC is a smaller version of the same thing the IFA was. It's a money suckhole propped up on Innova's checkbook. They obviously bit down on the dream when they started it and thought that Coke or some other big $$$ company would have picked the event up off their checkbook by now. It didn't happen. Now they are re-thinking the event and their financial commitment to it, and everyone is screaming that they are taking something away from us. What it really shows is that we were not nearly ready for it when they gave it to us, and the dream is still as far away as it was 27 years ago.

The whole idea of disc golf sustaining a touring group of professional players is absurd. The only reason people don't see it as absurd is because it's been going on for so long. When you really look at the money, it's not there. Not anywhere close. We have a long, long way to go before we can support touring pros. It sucks if you are really good and have bit down on the PDGA dream, but the reality is that it's a mirage.

/thread

 

[TonyAPE12]

On APE's comments, I'm sorry rank got pulled, that should be reserved for trolls, I apologize. As to marketing concerns, do you think that the disc is propped up by the pro, or that the pro is propped up by the disc? If you were to walk in to a shop and see twelve discs without a sig and one that said "MNcyclone signature cyclone", wouldn't it have the same affect on you as a Doss sig? It is just a repackaging of a product, and I am willing to bet that if the AJ destroyer where marketed as a destroyer X it would sell exactly the same. Apparently so is Innova, because they have chosen their product over their pros in regards to the USDGC.

I guess that I would disagree with you if everyone was a competitive player and understood and was knowledge about the game from all parts of it. But like I said earlier, I tend to underestimate by far how many rec players there are that pick up any disc and go toss it. Thanks for the insight, and I meant no disrespect with my previous comments regarding your post.

 

[Rip Van]

Wow, fantastic write-up. As someone who played in the Wham-O days, I wondered how they justified those hand-outs.

The problem with that is A) it's not happening and B) players buy into the dream and get disillusioned when it doesn't happen. It's been the ongoing cycle, and it's nothing new. It might seem worse now, but it's nothing new. It's been going on for almost 30 years now.

I think it's worse now because there's been a lot of local growth, so every town has quite a few good players. The pie is the same or smaller, but a lot more people want a slice. That's frustrating. It's cool to say you've gotten good enough to "go pro" but unless you're consistently one of the top five in the world, prepare to sleep on the floor. (Nothing wrong with that, especially if you're in your 20s, but it won't keep a roof over your head very well.)

We should have a pool on when the big name sponsor does step up, when the market gets too big to ignore. Disc golf courses do seem to be getting busier. There are around 4000 courses now -- maybe when there are 40,000? When did skateboarding get too big to ignore?

 

[krupicka]

I still wonder in my mind if the Ford Explorer with Mary Jane caused a quick decision to make the change.

The decision that the USDGC was going alternate years was announced on August 25, 2010 (prior to the fiasco you mentioned).

 

[Smigles]

The only thing I can not understand is the handicap system. From what I understood in a interview, the organisers take your rating, somehow multiply it with the course rating and then you get a expected score. Your tournament ranking will be calculated from your expected score and your actual score.

Which is probably the most stupid idea I ever heared of.

It opens the doors to sandbaggers. The rating calculation is not always representing your playing abilities. People who play very consistently with little chances of going much above their rating are screwed if somebody comes along whos performance varies greatly and they shoot a good round compared to their average rating. Worst of all, this system does not realy reward performance only.

Why should some AM that is expected to shoot 850 but actualy shot 900 be placed better than a pro expected to shoot 1050 and "only" shooting 1060 ? Why should a AM playing 850 rounds even be at the same event as a pro shooting 1000+ ?

I kinda understood stroke & distance last year. This years handicap system is totaly out of the loop IMO.

 

[grodney]

ThreePutt, great post. Many of us have been saying (preaching?) the same thing for many many years, though perhaps not nearly as eloquently.

It's a rude awakening for hundreds if not thousands of disc golfers, but the truth hurts.