How to handle when a TD may have made a math error in payouts

[dreadlock86]

For $50, players got a disc with market value of $15, and a t-shirt that's a rough market value of (let's be generous) $8. In this hypothetical tournament I've received $23 in value for my $50 entry fee.

this sounds like disingenuous hyperbole to try to make your point. the estimated retail value for this shirt should be double what you're saying unless it's plain-colored. i'm assuming it has a custom print and you haven't told us what material it is.

why don't you get specific and name the brand and plastic of the disc and describe this shirt?

 

[paulw]

This is why it's silly for anyone to run a disc golf tournament unless they are just running for fun.

The culture allows the TD to do a whole bunch of work and get a whole bunch of crap from everyone.

What should you do -- if you had a great time and are happy with what you got for your money, thank the TD(s) profusely and come back again next year.

If you had a great time and are unhappy with what you got for your money, thank the TD(s) profusely and don't go back next year.

If you had a lousy time and are happy with what you got for your money, go home and go back next year with a better attitude.

If you had a lousy time and are unhappy with what you got for your money, go home. Don't go back.

You won't do any of that -- you'll talk badly about volunteer workers behind their backs because you're sure that the 150 hours that they put in to scam you out of a pittance is how they're getting rich . . . ..

This thread has been on the internet in one form or another since Al Gore invented it -- and this post has been on most of them . . . . my guess is it will happen again. Whatever . ..

 

[Telperion]

Stop being a d!ck just because you're not getting the answer you want.
You're the new one, remember?

I'm fine with people disagreeing with me. Truly, I'm fine with it. A few people in this thread have disagreed with me and you don't see me replying to them because I'm fine with disagreement.

I'm get frustrated when someone seems incapable or unwilling to understand what I'm saying. Someone wildly missing your point and getting hung up on something you're literally not even saying gets old fast, you know? I'm not saying "not agreeing with my point", not understanding. Disagree away, but don't disagree with something I'm not even saying. That just shows a total lack of comprehension of what I'm posting, and I just don't have any desire to engage with that.

 

[DavidSauls]

For the umpteenth time, let me reiterate my point.

I'm not okay with a TD making what I consider to be excessive profits on the backs of amateur entry fees.

Let me break this down for you in really simple terms.

Gross
- Cost
= Net

If cost is low, the net can be divided one of 3 ways: payouts to players, extra profit to TD, or reduced entry fees so that there is a lower net in the first place. I support reasonable profit. I don't believe TDing should be something somebody is using as a for-profit tool to squeeze the players.

I am suggesting that I support 1 and 3, I don't support 2. How hard is this to understand?

So if the TD buys the merchandise at retail from some 3rd party, you're happy that the TD didn't get the markup, but the 3rd party did? You get the same, either way.

 

[Telperion]

Your $16 disc suddenly became $15 and where can you buy new disc golf shirts for $8? Sounds like you're severely downplaying the value of your player's pack to paint the picture of either a crooked TD or somebody who is magically disc golf rich?

The entire business model of how the PDGA approaches the professional division is a different topic.

Please, read, read my words.

At $16 I called it retail value or MSRP. At $15 I called it market value. I choose the words I use, and I use the words I mean. Market value is not MSRP. Market value is not retail value.

I chose my words for a reason.

 

[Telperion]

You are free to vote with your $$ and just don't take part in any of his events. You are the one that seems to be hung up on demanding everyone here agree with YOUR view of the situation. Don't play! Better yet, take your great knowledge and self righteousness and run your own events. I'm sure most will gravitate to your event and the bad TD will fade away.

Again, I don't need or want everyone to agree with me. I do want people to disagree with what I'm actually saying, not what they erroneously think I'm saying. There's a difference between the two and it's significant.

Also I quite literally said that I will be voting with my money. Yes, that's what I'm saying.

 

[John Rock]

Wonderful. Hopefully you will find the value you are seeking and leave other hard working TD's to do things the way they see fit.

 

[Telperion]

this sounds like disingenuous hyperbole to try to make your point. the estimated retail value for this shirt should be double what you're saying unless it's plain-colored. i'm assuming it has a custom print and you haven't told us what material it is.

why don't you get specific and name the brand and plastic of the disc and describe this shirt?

Because I have no interest in starting that kind of drama by naming anyone or anything.

I've ordered runs of ~140 single color, athletic blend, custom graphic tees before. Every year actually for outdoor corporate team building. I know what that kind of pricing looks like because the PO's traversed through a part of my business process.

 

[John Rock]

Were you selling those shirts? Doing it as part of your daily work and getting paid by your corporate employer?

 

[Telperion]

Were you selling those shirts? Doing it as part of your daily work and getting paid by your corporate employer?

See:

I support reasonable profit. I don't believe TDing should be something somebody is using as a for-profit tool to squeeze the players.

 

[rusch_bag]

Play open.

 

[dehaas]

The entire business model of how the PDGA approaches the professional division is a different topic.

Please, read, read my words.

At $16 I called it retail value or MSRP. At $15 I called it market value. I choose the words I use, and I use the words I mean. Market value is not MSRP. Market value is not retail value.

I chose my words for a reason.

But back to the shirts...go online to DD, Marshall Street, or any other online retailer. Shirts hover right around $20. So your $15 disc and a shirt is right in line with your $36 player's pack value. Sure it doesn't cost them $20 have them made, and the disc doesn't cost $15. Those are retail values for the items...which goes back to your original point you keep saying everybody is ignoring.

No, the player's pack value isn't way overstated to the point where the TD is acting unethically. They're assigning a value to what players are given, and the numbers you provided seem to match what you would expect to go pay elsewhere for those items.

Saying you understand the difference between wholesale and retail and then using values like $5 shirts, and then later $8 shirts to try to justify your original point of somebody acting unethically just doesn't fly.

 

[Hampstead]

Player's packs.



-shakes head-

 

[Telperion]

But back to the shirts...go online to DD, Marshall Street, or any other online retailer. Shirts hover right around $20. So your $15 disc and a shirt is right in line with your $36 player's pack value. Sure it doesn't cost them $20 have them made, and the disc doesn't cost $15. Those are retail values for the items...which goes back to your original point you keep saying everybody is ignoring.

No, the player's pack value isn't way overstated to the point where the TD is acting unethically. They're assigning a value to what players are given, and the numbers you provided seem to match what you would expect to go pay elsewhere for those items.

Saying you understand the difference between wholesale and retail and then using values like $5 shirts, and then later $8 shirts to try to justify your original point of somebody acting unethically just doesn't fly.

Each price point is relevant to a different aspect of the broader discussion.

It's a $5 shirt in the context of supply cost. It's an $8 shirt in in the context of market value. It's a $[14-16 ish] shirt in the context of MSRP/retail.

$5 relevance: Discussing TD cost/profit
$8 relevance: Discussing value to the player
$14-16 relevance: Discussing what the PDGA allows the TD to use to value the player pack

I'm in disbelief that you're saying that using contextually appropriate prices is a bad thing. More precise terminology is bad? This is a highly nuanced topic with precise language. That's not a bad thing.

 

[Hampstead]

Welcome to tournament golf.

 

[dehaas]

So you're saying because YOU attach an $8 value to a shirt that makes somebody else unethical?

 

[Broken Shoulder]

OP is clearly brilliant and the rest of us are too stupid to keep up.

 

[John Rock]

I have barely any tournament experience, so I wanted to bounce a recent B tier amateur tournament off some people who have done this more than me.

Disclaimer up front: I'm not playing amateur for payouts, and it's not relevant whether the PDGA amateur payout structure should exist (since I know that's controversial). I would happily play a cheap Am tournament with no payout, but it's a $50 fee B tier Am event, so the Tour Standards apply. I think the TD may have made a calculation error, so I want to know if what I experienced was typical or if I should follow up with the TD to get some clarification. It may have been an innocent oversight since the TD had the division payouts scribbled on a piece of paper.

The specs:

• PDGA B-tier
• $50 entry fee
• 25 players in division
• Player pack: 1 disc (choice between 2 disc models in premium or a different disc in base plastic), 1 t-shirt

First place was $45 voucher I believe, 4th was $35 voucher. Using the pay tables, those numbers calculate back to a $350 total payout. Breaking down the entry fees, the only way to get to that payout is if the Net Entry Fee was $14, meaning the player pack had to have been assigned a retail value of $36. A t-shirt and disc doesn't seem like a $36 retail value to me.

Am I seeing this correctly? Like I said earlier, I'm not saying there was TD malfeasance, it could have been a simple math mistake. Or maybe the TD got the player pack value mixed up with the value of a different recent tournament that had a 2-disc player pack. Lots of innocent mistake scenarios. I want to make sure I'm not making a newbie error in my calculations before I message the TD and ask if the calculation was accidentally incorrect.

This. Follow up in person, not text or email. Look the guy in the eyes and see if he is trying to get a 401K boost off of running Disc Golf events. My guess is he will politely explain to you the basic costs involved and why your thoughts, while not irrelevant, just don't hold water. Maybe he did make a mistake. Surely he will be man enough to admit it, and maybe even try to make it right with you. Complaining on an internet message board just looks like you want to get people on your side of your argument. If your local TD then asks you to volunteer your expertise at his next event to avoid these mistakes and make everyone happier, hopefully you will accept his offer and jump into the organizational side of this stuff and see firsthand what is involved. And by the way, it's probably going to be volunteer work like the rest of us have been putting in for many, many years.

 

[ballgolfconvert]

Like I said, I get it. I'm not disputing what the PDGA Tournament Standards are. I asked for thoughts, and I'm getting them. I'm not disagreeing with anyone's experience. I'm saying that a tournament with:

1. 300% t-shirt markup to arrive at "Retail"
2. Merch vouchers to only the TD's disc store (ensuring that the TD takes a ~35% cut of the payout as well)

--does not feel particularly ethical to me. Disc golf tournaments, again, to me, are not vehicles for a TD to figure out every way they can boost their profit at the expense of the players. If this is how this TD will run their tournaments, I'll take my money elsewhere. Again, it's not about the payout for me, I said up front that I'd gladly pay for lower cost non-payout tournaments. I just can't get on board with a TD banking 75% of the total net cost and only 25% going to the players.

I don't care for the current standards either. i would prefer a standard where the TD / Club was capped at $5 profit per player. Giving me a disc that cost $8 and saying it is worth $16 to eat up a large amount of entry fees just doesn't seem kosher. I would much prefer to pay a club fee or TD fee than to have value misrepresented. PDGA standards are truly a license to steal. Don't tell me you can't afford to provide lunch when you are making $20 on "free" merchandise.

 

[DiscFifty]

Just email the TD (asap) and ask for a break down how everything was calculated. I've done that in the past, sure you'll get a response like "Sorry you are not happy with the event, maybe this event isn't for you next time", but they will reply with the break down, not in cost/profit but in retail value. I'm pretty sure they are obligated to have the data available to the public anyway if someone asks.