2015 Amateur Championships at Bowling Green

[Martin Dewgarita]

I make no decisions. I offered the use of the Holler and I will do my part by having it ready to go.

Love it, Thanks! Amanda can't wait to play it again

 

[roadtripstuff]

Hmm...not sure how I feel about the changes for the women's division. I know that I'm still stoked to play and can't wait for this tournament. Its a tournament I look forward to every year and the changes don't really affect that. I guess we will see how it goes, one bright side is that I will get to play three new courses.

 

[kimnem]

5 extra holes doesn't equal a fourth round.

I am very excited to play these courses.

Chuck- you are saying that women are complainers. That is disrespectful. I cannot even try to respect your opinion on any of this. Learn how to make a point without being offensive.

 

[oddjob]

Are you complaining about being labeled a complainer?

 

[Cgkdisc]

5 extra holes doesn't equal a fourth round.

I am very excited to play these courses.

Chuck- you are saying that women are complainers. That is disrespectful. I cannot even try to respect your opinion on any of this. Learn how to make a point without being offensive.

Not disrespectful but factual based on 25 years of being a TD, handling ratings complaints, dealing with complaints on schedule, field caps and course assignments for over 20 Worlds, plus answering a wide of array disc golf issues for the PDGA and on my own time online. BTW, not saying complaining is bad, just part of what DG organizers are more likely to deal with. Perhaps a more political correct way to say it would have been that certain subgroups of players are more likely to express their concern over perceived slights.

 

[teemkey]

Perhaps a more political correct way to say it would have been that certain subgroups of players are more likely to express their concern over perceived slights.

Chuck, have you eliminated the possibility that the complaining groups aren't, in fact, receiving more slights?

 

[Cgkdisc]

We (don't forget I'm part of this group) just seem to be more likely to comment on perceived differences in things as a percentage of our representation among players. The irony is that women and older players are regularly catered to more than the mainstream player groups. Examples are women allowed to play in equivalent skill divisions populated by men or play in their own divisions. At times, extra cash proportionally added to women pro purses. Age based am divisions are offered when those older players have skill levels in the range of the main am divisions. The fact there are "pro" divisions playing for cash out through Legends level. That smaller divisions typically women, players older than masters and juniors expect to play as many rounds as the much bigger divisions even though fewer rounds are needed to separate the field. These are all examples of favorable discrimination in our sport.

 

[Vorpaljesus]

As a female disc golfer, which has competed in this tournament for all but 1 of the last 6 years, I can say that this is a truly disappointing decision for the female divisions. I can only hope that the TD will reconsider and give us 4 rounds like any other division. I come to this tournament to compete. Of course I want to play good courses (so I'm thrilled that we don't have to play BG technical college again this year), but at the same time, we can still play four rounds. If we're the only pool playing the courses- we play the shortest/easiest course of the three 2x on Saturday-problem solved!
Women in the sport of disc golf is growing, and maybe the thought is that by putting the women apart from the other main divisions we will feel more comfortable and it will inspire others to sign up. What I can tell you is that this is the biggest amateur tournament- let's focus on building new disc golfers in smaller tournaments. Quit trying to make our pool into some separate women's tournament that is built to foster brand new players into the sport that may be new to this type of competition. This type of tournament requires commitment and stamina- it should- it's an A tier. This was my second tournament ever. My boyfriend and I traveled for 8 hours to get there, we played courses on the way down, courses that we weren't playing in the tournament, we played all of our courses before the tournament started and then we played four rounds a piece. Was I tired- of course! But it was the tournament that got me hooked as a competitor. So when people say I have a choice to play this- yes that is true. But it breaks my heart that a huge, A tier tournament with a highly experienced TD and a large club, plus the support from the vendors can't find a way to get us four rounds and will require me to make a choice that I haven't had to make in 6 years.
The TDs who sign up to run tournaments should know in advance that they aren't getting paid- right? So in the spirit of transparency, I think TDs need to know they have a choice to decide to run a tournament. They can choose if the terms are worth it for them. I've chosen to play BG Ams for 5 years now because of how well it is run. I'm hoping that HB's good sense with tournament directing will know that listening to the people who play his tournaments will help him continue to make an already great tournament even better for an entire pool of players.
Let me point out that I am very willing to step up the men's division if that's what I have to do for equality- but do I really get that there? Men's rec players can be rated up to 900 before moving up.
My last valid point- if we're supporting women in disc golf- how many of us have our significant other in this tournament, too? Not all men have their women into disc golf, but the majority of women have their men involved (or even got started because of them- thanks allinpflop ) How do we get to our courses when we've driven one car from hours away? This significantly cuts into the ability to carpool.
And did Chuck really try to support his argument by saying that women are complainers????? :wall:

Play in a non-gender protected division. Problem solved

 

[Cgkdisc]

The problem for the majority of women players is the non-gender protected divisions either don't go low enough in ratings range (none below 800) or are not offered in many areas/events. Not uncommon for Novice (800-849) to not be offered and even Rec division (850-899). Women with ratings in the Men's Intermediate and Advanced division are almost all pros and number less than 100 in the world.

 

[Vorpaljesus]

The problem for the majority of women players is the non-gender protected divisions either don't go low enough in ratings range (none below 800) or are not offered in many areas/events. Not uncommon for Novice (800-849) to not be offered and even Rec division (850-899). Women with ratings in the Men's Intermediate and Advanced division are almost all pros and number less than 100 in the world.

I feel that. But the option is there to play the amount of rounds she wants to play.
And the option is there to play against the desired competition.
But apparently not both. Can't get everything you want I guess :/

 

[peabody]

Seems like there will be parking problems at holler.

 

[Cgkdisc]

I feel that. But the option is there to play the amount of rounds she wants to play.
And the option is there to play against the desired competition.
But apparently not both. Can't get everything you want I guess :/

That helps make my point. It's rare to find absolute "fairness" among all of the divisional offerings at events, especially where many players have more than one choice. It's simply whether any of the divisional offering(s) that you qualify to enter are sufficiently acceptable for you to enter regardless of the other divisional offerings you may not qualify to enter.

 

[scarpfish]

It was stated BG is BIGGEST Am event ALWAYs.

At 705 Charlotte Am Worlds is the largest Amateur Event ever.

Only if the world never existed before 2008. Last I checked, 724 and 708 were more than 705. Read it and weep.

http://www.pdga.com/tour/event/6373
http://www.pdga.com/tour/event/7295

 

[Cgkdisc]

Also, if you count the most Am rounds played in an event, Am Worlds has likely beaten BG every year.

 

[1978]

As a female disc golfer, which has competed in this tournament for all but 1 of the last 6 years, I can say that this is a truly disappointing decision for the female divisions. I can only hope that the TD will reconsider and give us 4 rounds like any other division. I come to this tournament to compete. Of course I want to play good courses (so I'm thrilled that we don't have to play BG technical college again this year), but at the same time, we can still play four rounds. If we're the only pool playing the courses- we play the shortest/easiest course of the three 2x on Saturday-problem solved!
Women in the sport of disc golf is growing, and maybe the thought is that by putting the women apart from the other main divisions we will feel more comfortable and it will inspire others to sign up. What I can tell you is that this is the biggest amateur tournament- let's focus on building new disc golfers in smaller tournaments. Quit trying to make our pool into some separate women's tournament that is built to foster brand new players into the sport that may be new to this type of competition. This type of tournament requires commitment and stamina- it should- it's an A tier. This was my second tournament ever. My boyfriend and I traveled for 8 hours to get there, we played courses on the way down, courses that we weren't playing in the tournament, we played all of our courses before the tournament started and then we played four rounds a piece. Was I tired- of course! But it was the tournament that got me hooked as a competitor. So when people say I have a choice to play this- yes that is true. But it breaks my heart that a huge, A tier tournament with a highly experienced TD and a large club, plus the support from the vendors can't find a way to get us four rounds and will require me to make a choice that I haven't had to make in 6 years.
The TDs who sign up to run tournaments should know in advance that they aren't getting paid- right? So in the spirit of transparency, I think TDs need to know they have a choice to decide to run a tournament. They can choose if the terms are worth it for them. I've chosen to play BG Ams for 5 years now because of how well it is run. I'm hoping that HB's good sense with tournament directing will know that listening to the people who play his tournaments will help him continue to make an already great tournament even better for an entire pool of players.
Let me point out that I am very willing to step up the men's division if that's what I have to do for equality- but do I really get that there? Men's rec players can be rated up to 900 before moving up.
My last valid point- if we're supporting women in disc golf- how many of us have our significant other in this tournament, too? Not all men have their women into disc golf, but the majority of women have their men involved (or even got started because of them- thanks allinpflop ) How do we get to our courses when we've driven one car from hours away? This significantly cuts into the ability to carpool.
And did Chuck really try to support his argument by saying that women are complainers????? :wall:

What I notice is that often decisions about service anywhere in life are based on some metric. You may feel the way you do about the above, however regardless of all the different ways I have seen TD's try to accomodate ladies (same tees, different tees, short, long, renaming them from short/lady tee to alternate tees, different courses, PAYOUT OUT EVERY WOMAN THAT PLAYS) female attendence continues to lag in growth. As a female it is your responsibility to get friends and peers to play. There is only so much a TD can do and it appears that HB thinks this is the best way right now. Your opinion might be a strong/valid one but it also might not be a majority one.

As far as the carpool thing. You just cannot worry about this as a TD of something this size. Its the same arguement as friends that carpool to worlds. To manage this is an undertaking thats not worth the time. If you or a few men and ladies dont show because of carpooling, not to worry, someone is in line to take your spot. Its just the harsh reality of it.

There is almost nothing hotter than a Female Disc Golfer. I dont know a TD that wouldnt like more women attending. the problem is, no matter what you do, they don't show, and you eventually drop it.

 

[DatRedDude]

To add and reiterate what I've already said.

This will be Mandabear's second go at this tourney as a rec level women's player. She is so excited that she gets to play Holler, have a slightly more leisurely morning on Saturday. And I don't know if the schedule describes how many holes will be played at Holler, the additional holes add another 5 or 9 for a full day of 27 holes - 27 epic holes vs 18 holes that made her want to curl up in a ball and cry in the middle of the fairway (White) She's beyond excited.

And let's say your ranting and raving gets HB to change the plan and take that away from her, and next week I have to tell her that oh - she doesn't get to play Holler, and she has to suffer through White again. She will hunt you down and tie your nuts into a pretzel... And even if

I consider you something of a friend - at least a friend that I say hi to in passing once a year. You must realize that others have differing opinions and that your ambition to "fix" this "problem" could be upsetting for some - in fact, you seem to be in the minority on this thread.

This is funny as i played the same pool as the women last year and had the same feelings mandabear did.

 

[allinpflop]

The fact of the matter remains that the only reason there isn't a public outcry is bc it doesn't affect many readers of this board...if instead the same decision was made for men's int lots of people would be up in arms...bc it doesn't affect you personally you don't care....and see anyone who does as a complainer. The worst part is this could be fixed so easily and everyone could get exactly what they want with very little effort and almost no change at all to staffing requirements from the TD. Just make holler fri and play one of the other 2 courses twice....done. I would love to hear someone argue these points.

 

[allinpflop]

This is funny as i played the same pool as the women last year and had the same feelings mandabear did.

What pool is that...every year women have played with the corresponding men's pool...ie adv with adv etc.

 

[Cgkdisc]

HB hasn't commented yet. But you don't give him much credit for thinking of that idea and choosing the option he's providing. TDs rarely intentionally make choices to tick off their potential customers and only deviate with divisional plans for practical reasons. Intermediate constantly gets different offerings than Advanced in events whether it be the entry fee, courses played, tees played, bonus basket for first place, different payout table, etc. You rarely hear complaints because they know they can choose to play up for a different deal if they think that's better.

 

[allinpflop]

HB hasn't commented yet. But you don't give him much credit for thinking of that idea and choosing the option he's providing. TDs rarely intentionally make choices to tick off their potential customers and only deviate with divisional plans for practical reasons. Intermediate constantly gets different offerings than Advanced in events whether it be the entry fee, courses played, tees played, bonus basket for first place, different payout table, etc. You rarely hear complaints because they know they can choose to play up for a different deal if they think that's better.

You missed my analogy....I was saying that had HB decided that Int played only 3 rds and rec and adv remained unchanged people would be pissed. As far giving him credit to me it looks like he took the easy way out by changing as few pools and schedules as possible and assumed no one would care about the 2 affected parties...if he really wanted to add more players (which is what everyone claimed was why these groups got screwed) then why would he add 3 courses and only 1 pool of players...doesn't make any sense to me. I hope that either here or in pm HB reaches out with his side of things.