2016 Pro Worlds

[specsman]

LOST....really, that's your solution?

Dunno, you tell me. If you have 2 discs near each other and can't definitively say which disc is yours, why shouldn't it be treated as lost?

 

[Pbmercil]

I thought the call on Devan's drive on 17 was interesting.... roughly looks like this:
............|
............|
........ M | >
............|
...OB.....|
----------

His drive went first OB (crossing over OB letters) then missed the mando and landed OB.

The call was 'Mando always supersedes OB'.

I could find nothing in the PDGA rules or Q&A that substantiates that call.

804.04 A. A disc is out-of-bounds if its position is clearly and completely surrounded by an out-of-bounds area. See 802.02.B for determining when a disc in water or foliage has come to rest.

Note: It does not state a disc has to be at rest to be OB.

This is incorrect. The disc has to establish position to be OB, and it does not establish position until it is at rest.

 

[notroman]

I thought the call on Devan's drive on 17 was interesting.... roughly looks like this:
............|
............|
........ M | >
............|
...OB.....|
----------

His drive went first OB (crossing over OB letters) then missed the mando and landed OB.

The call was 'Mando always supersedes OB'.

I could find nothing in the PDGA rules or Q&A that substantiates that call.

804.04 A. A disc is out-of-bounds if its position is clearly and completely surrounded by an out-of-bounds area. See 802.02.B for determining when a disc in water or foliage has come to rest.

Note: It does not state a disc has to be at rest to be OB.

If a disc is flying over OB (and the OB line is defined as a vertical plane) is the disc at that time clearly and completely surrounded by OB?

If a disc completely surrounded by OB is 'out of play' is it, then, unable to miss a Mando?

Or as Terry stated on the broadcast, the first infraction typically stands....

I do realize the language in the Caddy Book states: Mando to right of tree, proceed to DZ with one stroke penalty if missed; So, in this case it was arguably not a misplay....

But I did think it was an interesting interpretation of the rules....

You must make the mando before your shot counts. Doesn't matter where the disc lands. If you miss the mando you go to the drop zone. If you try to call the disc OB then you're essentially saying that passing on the wrong side of the mando is okay, as long as the disc doesn't land inbounds.

 

[august dupree]

I thought the call on Devan's drive on 17 was interesting.... roughly looks like this:
............|
............|
........ M | >
............|
...OB.....|
----------

His drive went first OB (crossing over OB letters) then missed the mando and landed OB.

The call was 'Mando always supersedes OB'.

I could find nothing in the PDGA rules or Q&A that substantiates that call.

804.04 A. A disc is out-of-bounds if its position is clearly and completely surrounded by an out-of-bounds area. See 802.02.B for determining when a disc in water or foliage has come to rest.

Note: It does not state a disc has to be at rest to be OB.

If a disc is flying over OB (and the OB line is defined as a vertical plane) is the disc at that time clearly and completely surrounded by OB?

If a disc completely surrounded by OB is 'out of play' is it, then, unable to miss a Mando?

Or as Terry stated on the broadcast, the first infraction typically stands....

I do realize the language in the Caddy Book states: Mando to right of tree, proceed to DZ with one stroke penalty if missed; So, in this case it was arguably not a misplay....

But I did think it was an interesting interpretation of the rules....

Since the Mando is OB, if the disc flies in the air and never touches in bounds and then misses the mando, then the mando rule should apply. If the disc touches in bounds and then crosses the OB line before the mando, then the disc should be OB where it went out, regardless of whether it then goes past the mando or not.

That's how I see it but I agree that it is not specifically covered in the rules I think that is how they intended it to be.

 

[notroman]

Dunno, you tell me. If you have 2 discs near each other and can't definitively say which disc is yours, why shouldn't it be treated as lost?

I think giving a warning to each player then giving them the benefit of the doubt as to which disc belongs to whom would be more fair than calling lost discs when they're not lost.

 

[Streets]

The real issue is that when anyone does call anything, the DG 'community' loses its collective mind and the player that enforces the rules is the one who is wrong. Cases in point: Stokely's foot faults last year and McBeth daring to expect players to mark their damn discs.

And since the online community, for better or worse, is a representation of the community as a whole, apparently expecting players to follow the rules is what constitutes bad sportsmanship, not the other way around.

I can't speak for the whole community but I actually would like to see rules called...but consistently. Don't get bent out of shape over an allegedly unmarked disc, but then completely disregard painfully obvious time violations or foot faults.

It's a real ****show, and Smashboxx putting the timer up is a bad choice. It just highlights the unprofessional professional disc golf. Save that for the podcast and analysis, not the live feed.

Agreed. The timer was Am Hour.

 

[specsman]

I think giving a warning to each player then giving them the benefit of the doubt as to which disc belongs to whom would be more fair than calling lost discs when they're not lost.

Maybe for a fun game, but in competition? What if one of the identical discs has a significantly better lie and both players claim the disc with the good lie is theirs? I say they are lost, they lost track of which one is theirs and have a 50% chance of playing with a different disc for the rest of the round.

 

[august dupree]

This is incorrect. The disc has to establish position to be OB, and it does not establish position until it is at rest.

Let's say for example, someone throws a roller on 17 that gets down and then cuts OB before the mando, continues to roll past the mando and then comes to rest OB and past the mando.

Where would you mark the lie? Where it first went OB or at the DZ?

 

[JC17393]

I thought the call on Devan's drive on 17 was interesting.... roughly looks like this:
............|
............|
........ M | >
............|
...OB.....|
----------

His drive went first OB (crossing over OB letters) then missed the mando and landed OB.

The call was 'Mando always supersedes OB'.

I could find nothing in the PDGA rules or Q&A that substantiates that call.

804.04 A. A disc is out-of-bounds if its position is clearly and completely surrounded by an out-of-bounds area. See 802.02.B for determining when a disc in water or foliage has come to rest.

Note: It does not state a disc has to be at rest to be OB.

If a disc is flying over OB (and the OB line is defined as a vertical plane) is the disc at that time clearly and completely surrounded by OB?

If a disc completely surrounded by OB is 'out of play' is it, then, unable to miss a Mando?

Or as Terry stated on the broadcast, the first infraction typically stands....

I do realize the language in the Caddy Book states: Mando to right of tree, proceed to DZ with one stroke penalty if missed; So, in this case it was arguably not a misplay....

But I did think it was an interesting interpretation of the rules....

Couple things...

First, the line I bolded. Yes, a disc must be at rest to be considered OB. 804.04A, as you quoted, references the disc's position. Position is defined in 800.02 Definitions as "the location of the disc after it has been thrown and has initially come to rest."

The disc is not considered OB until it comes to rest. Until that point, it's simply a disc in motion/flight. It is neither in-bounds or out-of-bounds.

Second, QA33 has the solution when multiple rules potentially apply: "The violation with the most severe penalty is applied. Ties are broken by what happened first...." This comes from 801.01 H. "A throw or an action that is subject to penalty under more than one rule shall be marked and/or penalized in accordance with the rule that results in the most penalty throws, or, among rules that call for an equal penalty, the rule that was first violated."

If a disc passes a mando incorrectly then comes to rest OB, it missed the mando first, so that rule (and penalty) applies.

 

[Discslinger12]

I agree with this. Based on this rule, which I didn't see at first....

802.02 A. The thrown disc establishes a position where it first comes to rest.

 

[Pbmercil]

Let's say for example, someone throws a roller on 17 that gets down and then cuts OB before the mando, continues to roll past the mando and then comes to rest OB and past the mando.

Where would you mark the lie? Where it first went OB or at the DZ?

The DZ. The mando rules are super clear. Disc comes to rest on the wrong side of the mando: missed mando. Go to drop zone. The end. There is no grey area here.

 

[Reniger]

Anyone but Rick? That's the first time I've seen an anti-Rick sentiment.

Not really any hate for Rick, just a bigger fan of Sexton or McMahon. Hell, even seeing Paul get a 5th consecutive would have been cool. Ideally, I would've loved to see a McBeth, Sexton, McMahon, Doss final. I would be stoked for any of them to win. Again, nothing against Ricky, I think my only disdain at all it simply personality.

But, Ricky is just KILLING it. Even with two rounds and a final left, I don't see anyone catching him unless his ankle completely fails him. Nikko and Paul both have a slim shot to catch up, but eight and nine strokes is a BIG margin to gain when Rick is playing damn near flawlessly.

 

[notroman]

Let's say for example, someone throws a roller on 17 that gets down and then cuts OB before the mando, continues to roll past the mando and then comes to rest OB and past the mando.

Where would you mark the lie? Where it first went OB or at the DZ?

Here's another scenario for you: A road lines the entire right side of the fairway. There's a tree down the fairway that has mandatory left to stop people from throwing over the road. A player isn't aware of the mandatory tree and throws a hyzer over the road but doesn't come back in bounds. Did he miss the mando or go OB?

This is why the mandatory rule supersedes OB. Doesn't matter what flight the disc took, where it ended up, etc. If the disc passes on the wrong side of the mandatory (even if traveling over OB), it still counts as a missed mandatory and not as OB.

 

[august dupree]

The DZ. The mando rules are super clear. Disc comes to rest on the wrong side of the mando: missed mando. Go to drop zone. The end. There is no grey area here.

Yeah, I'm starting to see the logic here. In my example, if a roller had crossed the OB line before the Mando and then continued to roll past the Mando before finally coming to rest OB, then the Mando rule applies since technically the disc is not considered OB until it comes to rest. Therefore, passing the Mando actually happens first.

Thanks for helping to clear that up pb.

The situation where you have a mando that is beyond an OB line is unusual and quite frankly a situation that I think would baffle many rules officials and players. Glad we are talking about this and getting it right.

This would make an EXCELLENT question on a rules exam btw...

 

[JC17393]

The situation where you have a mando that is beyond an OB line is unusual and quite frankly a situation that I think would baffle many rules officials and players. Glad we are talking about this and getting it right.

This would make an EXCELLENT question on a rules exam btw...

It shouldn't baffle any official or player that knows the rules, because the principle of applying the rule of the first violation to occur is not new or uncommon in the least. It doesn't matter if the mando is positioned in an in-bounds area or an out-of-bounds area, the rule applies the same either way.

I do agree that it makes an excellent question for the rules test.

 

[takman]

Dunno, you tell me. If you have 2 discs near each other and can't definitively say which disc is yours, why shouldn't it be treated as lost?

The fact that they found them, then after some inspection they threw their next shots....definitively.

 

[ToddL]

PDGA Rules School (2013 update) says you take which happened first:
http://www.pdga.com/rules-school-mandatory-update-80402

 

[ToddL]

Couple things...

First, the line I bolded. Yes, a disc must be at rest to be considered OB. 804.04A, as you quoted, references the disc's position. Position is defined in 800.02 Definitions as "the location of the disc after it has been thrown and has initially come to rest."

The disc is not considered OB until it comes to rest. Until that point, it's simply a disc in motion/flight. It is neither in-bounds or out-of-bounds.

Then how do we define "last spot in bounds" for a regular OB throw?

We commonly define a disc in the air as being "currently IB" and "currently OB" with a final decision being made when it comes to rest. When its final location is OB, we find the last spot that it was in bounds as a location along its flight path while it was in the air.

 

[august dupree]

PDGA Rules School (2013 update) says you take which happened first:
http://www.pdga.com/rules-school-mandatory-update-80402

Well that mudifies things a bit....

According to this for throw A, they are saying it goes OB first even though it passes the Mando BEFORE coming to rest. Ain't that a peach?

"For Throw A, the disc crossed the OB line first and the lie is marked at the last point inbounds by the lower red dot or the player may retee. For Throw C, the disc missed the mando first and the player would go to the Drop Zone. For Throw B, if the group decides the disc went OB first, the player either gets the lie by the upper red dot where the mando line enters OB or they can retee. If the group can't decide because it was too close to tell, the player gets to choose. In this example, the player would likely choose to go to the Drop Zone."

 

[Major Tomahawk]

Somebody get Ricky a sharpie STAT!

But seriously, how can two guys on the top card, one being the #1 ranked player in the world, be throwing an unmarked disc? I mean everybody knows that's a rule right? Do they just think that that role doesn't apply to them? Or did they forget? Or what?

When anyone notices my unmarked discs and calls me on it, I just say "Thanks for the warning" and draw a peace sign on it.