Are Flip City, Idlewild..etc...wussy courses?

[Beable]

I popped over here after posting on the "Ratings are #1" thread and saw this. Beable, I see that you find multiple tees very important in what you deem as being a top notch course (Idlewild does not have them nor do many highly renowned courses).

I think Opti is correct. In my observation, on most courses I've played that have multiple tees, all the erosion and wear seems to be around one set of tees. Granted, my 250 courses played is only a tiny fraction of all courses out there, so I am open to hearing other observations.

If my observations are close to being correct, this leads to the obvious conclusion that multiple tees are really not that important to the DG playing public. But, I assume that will not stop many reviewers on this site from being convinced otherwise and rating otherwise.

Eh. It was the first thing I thought when I saw Opti complaining about a review from a noob. "Beable, I wonder if that course has short tees," I thought to myself. Went and looked, and it doesn't. It also doesn't have multiple pin locations.

It's not that important to me, but it is logical that on a site that doesn't cater only to great players, you're going to see low reviews from players who won't be able to take advantage of courses out of their skill range. If you're looking at the difference between a four disc course and a five disc, these things are going to come out in the long run.

Opti seemed to be saying, "Jeez my course is getting bagged on by noobs. Why doesn't that happen at Flip and Idlewild? Those must be easy courses." Both Flip and Idlewild have multiple tees according to their course descriptions. I'm saying that detail might be a factor in their across the board excellent ratings.

The good to great courses in my area: Knob Hill, Deer Lakes, and Moraine have 3 tees each. I've only played from the middle on Knob, but I can say that at Deer Lakes and Moraine...it definitely adds something to the course. When I started, I played from the closest. Leagues play from the middle, pros play from the long. The shots are very different between the different tees. In some ways it is almost like playing a different course.

I am not a great disc golfer, but if I was forced to play from the long tees at Deer Lakes and Moraine...it'd sap some of the enjoyment for me. From the short tees I try to play to par. From the middle I try to play bogey golf. From the long, I'd guess I'd try for double bogey golf? Ugh, that'd be hard to keep straight in my head.

 

[optidiscic]

Agree with u deer lakes is my only 5 and multiples tees at knob and morraine are great touch but Dave makes a good point re the neglect many extra tees get. I think design and challenge are the meat of a rating. Everything else is gravy. Some courses have a lot of gravy and no meat. Some are all meat no gravy and some have it all deer lakes! Many are underrated due to these reasons. I don't wanna miss out

 

[Beable]

That's true about them being kept up or not. Knob has 3, but only the middle has detailed signs, and the shorts don't have pads. Deer Lakes has raised tees for all three, I think. Moraine has concrete tees or pads for all three. Hell Monroeville has multiple tees, but you can't even find the "normal" one easily.

It cracks me up that you love Deer Lakes so much (but in a cool way, it being so close). I like it too, but I think Moraine is way more challenging. Bunch of holes at Deer Lakes are just straight throws.

 

[billnchristy]

It isn't the course or the course designers fault about multiple tees. It is the mentality of the players at the course.

My home course has an SSA of 50 and 45 from the Blue and Red tees. During the first sanctioned tournament (only) held there, REC and below threw from reds. Therefore, it would be a logical person's understanding that RED=900 and below rated should play here and maybe use the blues as a gauge.

Does that happen? NO.

I appear to be the only dude man enough to play from "the girl" tees which is a joke because during said tournament there was only 1 900 rated round played from the reds.

What am I crying about? If you want people to use the right tees then educate them on their purposes.

I see people out there that can't throw 80' throwing from the blues because nobody tells them that it is ok to use the shorts.

 

[Beable]

Took me a moment to decipher that, Bill. But I guess you're saying that Mr 1.5 Discs would have insisted on throwing from the long tees and then complained about the course being too hard, even if there were short tees available?

That's a decent point, I suppose. There's some guys at my work who play very very recreationally and call the short tees the "lady's tees" and won't play from them. But I hope for my fellow man that if you get a snowman from the long tees on a par 3, you think about maybe playing from the shorts for the subsequent holes.

 

[billnchristy]

Just a guess but most likely. Or even more likely he sucks bad enough to still bitch about "the ladies" tees.

Some people just don't like getting beat. If I play a hard course I expect to come out feeling like I spent a night in a Vegas suite with 4 dominatrixes and a gimp costume.

April 10th we are playing a 14000' par 100. I expect to probably throw +50 or more.

 

[compn]

so what you guys want is a top10 course list from people with a minimum of 2 years disc experience? or a minimum of 20 courses played?

 

[billnchristy]

I don't. I like reviews that are from people who are at my "skill" level.

 

[aarikc17]

In the end it really doesn't matter what descrepencies in ratings a course has on DGCR. Because anytime I am playing a new course I will read all reviews and can make an assessment from that. And if people are saying it's "too long, too hard" I'll be more inclined to enjoy that course. However, this is also helpful to people to are newbs and do not want these attributes.

Lesson is.... reading is a good thing, and I'm glad everyone can do it. If you don't like reading a lot... you should.

 

[Technohic]

I wouldnt put limitations by experience, but I would weight it on thumbs up or down. If they say it sucks and it is well written and supports their opinion, its just an opinion. Otherwise, you make the ratings only valid to people of a certain skill level or higher and take away the nice diversity we have here.

 

[jeverett]

I wouldnt put limitations by experience, but I would weight it on thumbs up or down. If they say it sucks and it is well written and supports their opinion, its just an opinion. Otherwise, you make the ratings only valid to people of a certain skill level or higher and take away the nice diversity we have here.

I think this would be another good method for controlling score outliers.. although it would have to implemented very carefully. Ideally, the system should also encourage users to give reviews thumbs up/down. But what you don't want is users giving a review a thumbs down for the sole reason of not liking the rating that review gave the course.

To accomplish this, reviews would definitely need some kind of 'buffer', and a slow decrease in value of the review after receiving thumbs down beyond the buffer.

Just as an example, a review with <10 thumbs up or down (the number is made up, and could even scale based on total number of reviews) would always count as the full review rating toward the course rating. Once a review reaches the 10 thumbs up/down mark, as long as say 50% of those thumbs are up, the review rating counts full toward the course rating. Below a 50% thumbs up, the review rating would slowly be worth less and less (maybe a linear or geometric equation), down to not counting at all if the review received zero thumbs up.

 

[TheStray]

This post was the main reason I didn't even want to bother rating any courses. For example I've played quite a few courses but have yet to find one that offers camping? Is it really a factor to some. Certainly not to me. Maybe if I ever want to travel and the sole purpose of said trip was specifically for disc golfing than okay but for now I could care less.

Now if the park is non alcohol friendly you won't be getting a 5 star rating from me because I am purely recreational (but seriously looking at being competitive someday). Seriously I was at a course and had a park ranger check my cooler. Look prohibition ended a long time ago get off my case and I will not be giving your park a 3 star rating regardless of difficulty or other amenities.

Bathrooms are a big thing for me. Don't expect me to not have to piss after drinking 4 beers on hole number 7, and no I don't feel like getting an indecent exposure ticket and end up on the sex offender registry list for the rest of my life. Inner city nines won't get any higher than a 3 from me even if there was a guy standing at each tee off with a towel cleaning my disc.

If I have to throw over a 300 foot reservoir the course won't be getting a five from me. To me losing a disc isn't like losing a golf ball it's like losing the whole club. I just don't feel like bringing a kayak to play disc golf.

Finally I decided to throw caution to the wind and just review a couple courses the way I thought I would want to read a review from someone that plays with similar interests to my own.

Honestly the reviews from the guys that are hauling around 55 discs in a roll along cart I could probably care less about.

My two cents.

 

[Dave242]

In the end it really doesn't matter what descrepencies in ratings a course has on DGCR. Because anytime I am playing a new course I will read all reviews and can make an assessment from that. And if people are saying it's "too long, too hard" I'll be more inclined to enjoy that course. However, this is also helpful to people to are newbs and do not want these attributes.
Lesson is.... reading is a good thing, and I'm glad everyone can do it. If you don't like reading a lot... you should.

That may well work for you, so that is good. But do this exercise to feel my pain: Your layover at Chicago airport is suddenly longer since your connecting flight was cancelled. It is 2pm in the afternoon and your next flight out is the next AM. The airline has given you a stay in a hotel for the night and a voucher for a rental car. Yo happen to have your discs and want to hit 3-5 good courses and play until sunset at 8:45pm.

So you type in 60018 into the zip code finder on the course browser and come up with this (you'll need to type in 60018). You could spend until 8:45pm reading reviews, or use ratings to narrow things down fast.

Do good/accurate ratings now become important to you?

 

[TheStray]

That may well work for you, so that is good. But do this exercise to feel my pain: Your layover at Chicago airport is suddenly longer since your connecting flight was cancelled. It is 2pm in the afternoon and your next flight out is the next AM. The airline has given you a stay in a hotel for the night and a voucher for a rental car. Yo happen to have your discs and want to hit 3-5 good courses and play until sunset at 8:45pm.

So you type in 60018 into the zip code finder on the course browser and come up with this (you'll need to type in 60018). You could spend until 8:45pm reading reviews, or use ratings to narrow things down fast.

Do good/accurate ratings now become important to you?

Recreationally speaking I would probably just use DGCR to find the courses without water. The ones that had a good map so I didn't spend 4 hours looking for the holes and would look at the disc rating last. Maybe even one that wasn't pay to play or that I had to get permission to be on.

 

[aarikc17]

That may well work for you, so that is good. But do this exercise to feel my pain: Your layover at Chicago airport is suddenly longer since your connecting flight was cancelled. It is 2pm in the afternoon and your next flight out is the next AM. The airline has given you a stay in a hotel for the night and a voucher for a rental car. Yo happen to have your discs and want to hit 3-5 good courses and play until sunset at 8:45pm.

So you type in 60018 into the zip code finder on the course browser and come up with this (you'll need to type in 60018). You could spend until 8:45pm reading reviews, or use ratings to narrow things down fast.

Do good/accurate ratings now become important to you?

Thanks for laying out a detailed scenerio. I don't think ratings are not important though, just need to read more into them. But in your case I would choose the course that is best marked, and is close to the hotel.

 

[Myers]

April 10th we are playing a 14000' par 100. I expect to probably throw +50 or more.

that will definitely be a long day, is that 18 holes or more than 18?

 

[tmahan]

That may well work for you, so that is good. But do this exercise to feel my pain: Your layover at Chicago airport is suddenly longer since your connecting flight was cancelled. It is 2pm in the afternoon and your next flight out is the next AM. The airline has given you a stay in a hotel for the night and a voucher for a rental car. Yo happen to have your discs and want to hit 3-5 good courses and play until sunset at 8:45pm.

So you type in 60018 into the zip code finder on the course browser and come up with this (you'll need to type in 60018). You could spend until 8:45pm reading reviews, or use ratings to narrow things down fast.

Do good/accurate ratings now become important to you?

This is a trick question!!!!! Nowadays you're lucky if the airline tells you which way the door is that your not supposed to let hit you in your @ss after they cancel your flight, let alone setting you up in a hotel with a rental car.

OK Dave, ratings are important. The end still doesn't necessarily justify the means. FWIW, I like your reviews, especially since now you're putting in some more descriptive text instead of just boilerplate. I've read enough for courses that I've played that I would use your ratings for a play/don't play decision for a course I hadn't played.

 

[sidewinder22]

I agree with u somewhat re rating being too important but I tend to search regions based on the rating criteria so I look at 4 or above rated etc. A few bad reviews and people like me miss out. So I think ratings are imp I'm going to va md and plan on hitting 4 rated and up. I wonder if I'm missing out?

In MD there are 3 courses rated 4.0, Seneca, Ptap, and Hot Shots. I wouldn't consider Hot Shots even close to Seneca and Ptap. Its rating is high because only 5 people have reviewed and there are no other courses around the area. Its a decent course but its basically a longer pitch and putt with no elevation change. Its well designed, has nice tees and signs, but not very challenging. Now Rockburn is rated 3.5, but IMO its a much better more challenging course with some incredible holes and huge elevation which is also more fun to play. Its rating is low due to the tees, layout confusion, and its notorious for newbs losing discs and having to go into the thorns and ivy. I think 3.5 is about the cutoff for your search and really have to look at the reviews and pics to see what you like.

 

[Cyclops]

The most challenging local course in my area just got a 1.5 from a local beginner. Seems that it just will never get a good DGCR rating due to it getting slammed by Noobs. These are quotes from the only 4 reviewers who gave it below a 4 rating(the other 19 gave it a 4 or above):
-Cons: too long. too convoluted and confusing. the holes are too long even for experienced players to not get a sore arm.
-Cons: Incredibly hard (maybe I'm just a newbie).
- Cons:Almost every hole is unforgiving, which is a real con for beginners (like me). This course will eat you alive!
-Cons: Only a handfull of the holes here are fun for staters to play the rest will leave you very very annoyed and chasing after your disk, this is not for people just starting out.
So I'm at the conclusion that for being difficult Nockamixon loses any shot at a top rating...Nocky has flaws..it holds water, it's rocky and muddy in places....we need to build some more boardwalks and bridges etc. but being too hard? C'mon that should not be a con. My goal when I play Nocky is to break 80...to me thats a good day. Most Pros throw in the 70s there and par is a difficult earned 67. (doesn't happen often.

I feel what you are saying about Nockamixon, it's my favorite course. Of all the courses that I have ever played, this is the only one I would ever consider giving a 5 disc rating. Even though I have said there is no course that deserves a 5 disc rating because it would have to be perfect. We all know that isn't possible and very subjective to a players likes and dislikes.

I love to play Nocky more than any local course. It makes you step up and play a better game becoming a better DG'er. It is such a good mix of holes it pushes you. You are right in that it has some flaws and still needs some work. Every time I ask my 13 year old son what course he would pick to play this weekend? We both look at each other and say Nockamixon!

Oh, it's not easy and can be very humbling on a bad day. But when you are kicking-arse at other courses and get cocky thinking you are the shnizt. It's time to put your boots on the ground at Nocky and test your mad skilz on the Rock. If the Rock brakes you? You know were you stand, and what you need to work on. Nocky is as much a thinking game as a skills game. If you play stupid, than you are punished. Like Forest Gump sayz.......

Nockamixon will punish a rosy-cheek'd, soft foot, limp wristed, muddle minded Noob like a red-headed-step-child! They will go home crying to Momma, putting all their discs on eBay in shame. Would you expect them to give the Rock of Knowledge a good rating after they were shamed and humbled? How do you get better if you don't push yourself? I love the course and wish it was closer to me. I would be there every weekend.

 

[tallpaul]

In general, if the course itself is awesome and tests your metal; (I mean an advanced or above level player; it gets into the 3.5 to 4 range. Few lesser courses can get to this range; unless they have everything else covered; and IMO that is possible; i.e. multiple tees, pin placements, good tees, signage, obvious love from locals, etc. But, for me, a top of the line skill course gets to at least a 3.5, even if it's missing many of the amenities. I think this is where sidewinder is correct; you begin your search at 3.5....unless things are quite askew; a good course shouldn't be under that. I do have to say that I have rated a number of good in state courses as 3's personally; but these are not must plays....I give "must plays" at least 3.5.
In regards to multiple tees being important; a course can not be a 5 in my book; or even approaching it; unless multiple tees are present; to accommodate various skill levels. (Multiple pin placements for variety and added skill challenges, would in most cases, also be necessary. With that said, the only 5 I've given has single pin placements, but the water is so present and scary, that for that one; it outweighed some other considerations.)