TomJulio I really want to play Flip...I'm sure its very good but I have now played with more than one player who has told me Flip doesnt stack up with other courses in the challenge department. Everyone admits its remarkable and beautiful though. I admire your dedication to your course but you are viewed as a homer and it might serve you well to admit some of Flip's shortcomings in an honest way. You'd gain more credibility...as it is I am beginning to think you don't know what a good course is. Everyone likes something different and a relatively easy but interesting and beautiful course is not such a bad thing. Just because not everyone gives flip a 5 doesnt mean its a bad thing. My home course gets dinged for being too hard and will never enjoy the fame of flip though those who have played both Flip and my course report my home course far surpasses Flip in challenge. Does that mean my course is better..I don't know. I guess I am just trying to say it is impossible to please everyone and if Flip was more difficult you'd lose points from the masses...if it had more tees and baskets to serve diffrnt levels of players it might be viewed as cluttered...Seems its a slice of heaven out there in western michigan I wanna play it but being offended that it somehow ranks #2 out of close to 4000 courses does seem humorous to most of us. I will give you credit I've baited you numerous times for a flame war and you never bite. So just to gain some credibility can you admit a few things that Flip could improve/add/have that might make it appeal to those wanting more challenge.