Courtesy violation for not watching a throw?

[DiscNutt123]

People like New are the biggest reason why disc golf is just a laughing stock in the world of sports. It's sad, really. I'd really love to see some larger companies take notice and get involved in this sport, but if I were one of their reps and I came to the biggest forum for DG to do research my only thoughts would be "What a joke.."

 

[JC17393]

i'm pretty sure if you called me on this i would do my best to call you on all kinds of **** the rest of your round.

Bring it the **** on. That's the point isn't it? Call a courtesy violation because a player isn't paying close enough or any attention at all to my or his other groupmates' throws, and the result is that he starts paying close attention? Mission accomplished. I don't care if his change in behavior is out of spite or that he's shamed into fulfilling his obligation.

Like I said, I am only going to make such a call if I feel it's a last resort kind of thing and I'm justified in the call. The threat of "mutually assured destruction" (i.e. I called him now he's going to try to call me) is something I'm prepared for and counting on to achieve the goal of the call in the first place.

 

[pmorgan1214]

I agree with most people on here. if you call me out for not paying attention, then i will pay attention to every shot you make. AND by any chance you have some violation then it will be called on you as well. People lose discs all the time. the fact that your willing to call your group out on them not paying attention to your shot is your fault. Also if you fall down i will laugh just like every one else. i have falled from wet grass or snow. I get laughed at as well.

 

[Future_Primitive]

According to rule 801.04 Courtesy:
"B. Players should watch the other members of their group throw in order to aid in locating errant throws and to ensure compliance with the rules."

and

"G. A player violating a courtesy rule may be warned by any affected player, even if from another group, or by an official. The player shall be assessed one penalty throw for each subsequent courtesy violation of any type in the same round. Repeated violations of courtesy rules may result in disqualification in accordance with Section 3.3 of the Competition Manual."

So if I drive but then fall down so I don't see where my disc lands, get up and ask the other members of my card if they saw it and someone says "I wasn't looking," I could call a courtesy violation warning on that person. I have played some pretty vegetation-thick courses, so I can see where it could be helpful if everyone is watching a drive. Also, if a player goes OB far down the fairway on their drive, or there is a question of when/whether the disc was IB, it is also important that other players were watching.

So my real question is, have you ever seen this called, or would you ever consider calling it? I have definitely been guilty of not watching other players throw before, but it just occurred to me from a post in another rules thread that it is actually a potential courtesy violation.

I guess I would have to question the wording of the rule, "Players SHOULD watch..." is not the same as Players MUST watch. The rule sounds more like a recommendation than a mandatory action by the rest of your group. Therefore I would have a really hard time calling this a violation or supporting you if you did.

I have never seen this called and I would never call it myself. I think the wording is simply to vague for it to be used in this scenario. If this is your strategy moving forward I may suggest running it by the TD prior to the event to make sure you are on the same page.

 

[JC17393]

I guess I would have to question the wording of the rule, "Players SHOULD watch..." is not the same as Players MUST watch. The rule sounds more like a recommendation than a mandatory action by the rest of your group. Therefore I would have a really hard time calling this a violation or supporting you if you did.

I have never seen this called and I would never call it myself. I think the wording is simply to vague for it to be used in this scenario. If this is your strategy moving forward I may suggest running it by the TD prior to the event to make sure you are on the same page.

I agree that calling players on it for missing one throw isn't really going to fly. But what if it is habitual? What if you ask the group to pay closer attention after they miss a throw (not call a courtesy, but kindly ask them to watch) and they persist in being distracted or inattentive?

I think at that point, you're beyond just whether the rule says "should" or "shall", you're into 801.04 D. territory (Refusal to perform an action expected by the rules...is a courtesy violation). It's one thing to not be paying attention once or twice, but to continue to do so after being asked seems like refusal to me.

I also think we should bear in mind that like most rules discussions, this is all theoretical and hypothetical. We push the envelope of realistic for discussion's sake, not because there is some epidemic issue that needs correcting or this is actually how we want to behave on the course. So maybe we can save some of the melodramatic "I'd hate to play with you" and "this is what's wrong with disc golf" type posts, and just talk about the subject at hand. Probably too much to ask in this crowd, I guess.

 

[Future_Primitive]

I agree that calling players on it for missing one throw isn't really going to fly. But what if it is habitual? What if you ask the group to pay closer attention after they miss a throw (not call a courtesy, but kindly ask them to watch) and they persist in being distracted or inattentive?

I think at that point, you're beyond just whether the rule says "should" or "shall", you're into 801.04 D. territory (Refusal to perform an action expected by the rules...is a courtesy violation). It's one thing to not be paying attention once or twice, but to continue to do so after being asked seems like refusal to me.

Now we have a new scenario.

If this is a repeated behavior than I would agree that you have a lot firmer ground to stand on. If somebody is constantly distracted and not watching the throws throughout the round and search time for missing discs is getting longer, it would seem something would need to be done to change the behavior.

I may try a friendly heads up unofficial warning on the walk to the next pad. Group, we are spending too much time looking for discs and it is slowing everyone down. Let's do our best to watch every shot in our group and help each other out to keep the pace of play moving. The rulebook states we should be watching each others shots. Even offer to show them the rule book and the rule.

Now if they still continue with being distracted and are not helpful, issue the violation. Now you have some ammo when explaining it to the TD, which will most likely happen as I am sure the other person won't appreciate the call on them. They were not paying attention and we wasted a lot of time looking for discs, I discussed with the card between holes as a friendly heads up, it continued despite my efforts and I had no choice but to call a courtesy violation.

I think if you go directly to violation it can turn into a he said/he said quickly with the TD as the judge. Even if you may be legally correct it can come off as petty. He fell down on his shot, got mad and tried to stroke me for not watching!! But if you can show a repeated behavior by said individual and steps you took to prevent it, your case looks much stronger to the TD. Just my $.02.

 

[WhiteyBear]

I guess I would have to question the wording of the rule, "Players SHOULD watch..." is not the same as Players MUST watch. The rule sounds more like a recommendation than a mandatory action by the rest of your group. Therefore I would have a really hard time calling this a violation or supporting you if you did.

I have never seen this called and I would never call it myself. I think the wording is simply to vague for it to be used in this scenario. If this is your strategy moving forward I may suggest running it by the TD prior to the event to make sure you are on the same page.

Is the wording too vague also for point C of courtesy? Because it uses "should" there too.

By that logic, only points d, e, and f are courtesy violations.

I don't like the wording either btw...

 

[WhiteyBear]

Now let's debate on whether or not we should throw a provisional using this rule...

 

[Grungedude42]

Just think of this from a cardmate's perspective. If I was watching a guy tee off and eat the dirt on his follow through, I wouldn't watch his disc. I'd make sure the player was ok. If he gets up, dusts himself off and call a courtesy violation for not watching his disc, I might put him right back in the dirt.

 

[WhiteyBear]

Just think of this from a cardmate's perspective. If I was watching a guy tee off and eat the dirt on his follow through, I wouldn't watch his disc. I'd make sure the player was ok. If he gets up, dusts himself off and call a courtesy violation for not watching his disc, I might put him right back in the dirt.

nope, just says I have to watch them throw, not follow their disc!

#Rulesstickler

 

[PhillyMatt]

Sounds miserable to play with some of you.

 

[jjpitt29]

Here's a good one for you....

Two weekends ago I was playing a tournament. I was "attempting" to throw a forehand on a hole. This is from the tee no less. My front foot was completely off the tee pad. It wasn't even close. I totally f'd my footwork and my foot was atleast 6 inches in front of the tee pad. It ended up being an ok shot, but as soon as I let go I asked, "anyone wanna call that foot fault". The other 3 guys on my card said they didn't even see it.

I was a little stunned... That was a tremendously bad foot fault and they didn't even see it? Should I have called them for a courtesy violation?

 

[JC17393]

nope, just says I have to watch them throw, not follow their disc!

#Rulesstickler

Well, the rule does specifically say you should watch "in order to aid in locating errant throws". Doesn't that imply you should watch the flight of the disc? After all, if you don't watch the disc, how can you aid in locating it? And that's regardless of whether the thrower falls down, stays on his feet, or does six cartwheels in his follow through.

I mean, if we're going to play #rulesstickler, let's play.

 

[PhillyMatt]

I was a little stunned... That was a tremendously bad foot fault and they didn't even see it? Should I have called them for a courtesy violation?

This is a joke right?

If you foot faulted, then asked me to call it, I said I didn't see it, then you called me on a violation for not watching, I'd punch you in your face right there on the teepad.

Or at the very least turn your bag over or something..

 

[jjpitt29]

This is a joke right?

If you foot faulted, then asked me to call it, I said I didn't see it, then you called me on a violation for not watching, I'd punch you in your face right there on the teepad.

Joke in what way? It was a true story... Fits in perfectly with this discussion.

 

[JC17393]

This is a joke right?

If you foot faulted, then asked me to call it, I said I didn't see it, then you called me on a violation for not watching, I'd punch you in your face right there on the teepad.

Or at the very least turn your bag over or something..

Who's miserable to play with?

I'll repost it just because...

I also think we should bear in mind that like most rules discussions, this is all theoretical and hypothetical. We push the envelope of realistic for discussion's sake, not because there is some epidemic issue that needs correcting or this is actually how we want to behave on the course. So maybe we can save some of the melodramatic "I'd hate to play with you" and "this is what's wrong with disc golf" type posts, and just talk about the subject at hand. Probably too much to ask in this crowd, I guess.

 

[Grungedude42]

Here's a good one for you....

Two weekends ago I was playing a tournament. I was "attempting" to throw a forehand on a hole. This is from the tee no less. My front foot was completely off the tee pad. It wasn't even close. I totally f'd my footwork and my foot was atleast 6 inches in front of the tee pad. It ended up being an ok shot, but as soon as I let go I asked, "anyone wanna call that foot fault". The other 3 guys on my card said they didn't even see it.

I was a little stunned... That was a tremendously bad foot fault and they didn't even see it? Should I have called them for a courtesy violation?

I wouldn't have called it. Provided you hadn't already had a warning, it would have just been a free rethrow.

 

[jjpitt29]

I wouldn't have called it. Provided you hadn't already had a warning, it would have just been a free rethrow.

So you are choosing not to follow the rules on an obvious rules violation? Is that not cheating?

To philly... I didn't ask them to call it. I was just assuming they would since it was so obvious. I was basically making fun of myself.

 

[PhillyMatt]

Who's miserable to play with?

I'll repost it just because...

Oh I see your plan. Since you made that post you can now propose the most annoying and assanine possibilities and just fall back on it when someone calls you out on it?

That's actually a pretty solid plan.

 

[Grungedude42]

It's called "choosing your battle". You can also be exploiting the rules by intentionally fouling for two tries on a drive.