Pre-Warning a Player of a Violation

[BillFleming]

This is something I've had "discussions" about in sanctioned play.

I saw a cardmate (Player 1) about to violate a rule and warned them about it. Another cardmate (Player 2) said I couldn't do that....I had to let them commit the violation. Their argument was that I affected Player 1's score (by saving them the penalty) and therefore, affected Player 2's standing in the round (Player 1 would have had a 'worse' score and possibly Player 2 would have ended up ahead of them).

I said it was just courtesy to notify a player that they were about to violate a rule. Player 2 said there was nothing in the rules about warning a player prior to the violation....only about enforcing the rule after the violation.

So, what do you do in that circumstance? Do you warn a card mate they are about to have a violation? Or is that against the rules?

For an example. A person marks their lie and takes their stance. You notice their supporting point is partially on their mini. Are you allowed to tell them prior to their throw?

 

[txmxer]

Not the same, but it's not uncommon for a player to ask for confirmation that there footing isn't okay when they have an awkward lie.

That avoids a penalty.

Being proactive doesn't seem to be in line with the general flow of the game though.

Just like you wouldn't remind a player to call a provisional if the throw appears to be OB but may not be as happened at Maple this year. That is the individual's responsibility is it not?

 

[biscoe]

No rule against it. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" seems applicable. I have seen plenty of players over the years be told to check their foot placement before they throw when it is obvious they are going to foot fault. In the end it is their responsibility but no need to be a dick about it.

 

[_MTL_]

Agree with the responses.

Someone who is standing still and about to commit a violation, IMHO it's borderline cheating and def bad sportsmanship not to say something before release.

Running up or something like that that cannot be warned in advance is a different conversation. In that situation, I think it's situational whether you call an official stance violation or do one of those "hey buddy just an FYI" type comments.

 

[DavidSauls]

Their argument was that I affected Player 1's score (by saving them the penalty) and therefore, affected Player 2's standing in the round (Player 1 would have had a 'worse' score and possibly Player 2 would have ended up ahead of them).

By that reason, discussing disc choice, wind direction, possible routes, unseen hazards, or anything else would be prohibited, too.

I'm on the "sportsmanship" side -- no harm in cautioning someone.

The delicate part is....sometimes I've cautioned someone against something they weren't going to do, and offended the thrower. So I don't worry about what anyone else may think, but I do take a moment to consider what the person I'm cautioning, may think.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Think I agree with Mr. Sauls: I'd want to give them a "heads up," but you want to be careful about messing with their head.

I wouldn't worry about what someone else on the card thinks. If that person wants to get bent out of shape, because they think good sportsmanship resulted in they're finishing lower ...that's their problem.

 

[ray1970]

Yeah, if I was about to commit some sort of rule violation I'd prefer a little heads up instead of someone just allowing it to happen and then calling me on it.

We're all out there to have fun while shooting our best round possible.

I suppose it you are the kind of guy that needs to get strokes on people by watching them and knowing they're about to inadvertently cost themselves a stroke then it just sucks to be you.

 

[BillFleming]

Not the same, but it's not uncommon for a player to ask for confirmation that there footing isn't okay when they have an awkward lie.

That avoids a penalty.

Being proactive doesn't seem to be in line with the general flow of the game though.

Just like you wouldn't remind a player to call a provisional if the throw appears to be OB but may not be as happened at Maple this year. That is the individual's responsibility is it not?

Yes, it is a player's responsibility...but so is everything else (stance, timing, etc). However, I would remind a person to call a provisional - in a way. If I saw a person's disc appear to go OB, I would ask them if they are going to throw a provisional and remind them to declare it to the group.

But, I would not warn a player of a possible violation if they were in the act of throwing. Standing still, preparing to throw - yes. Throwing - no.

 

[BillFleming]

Thanks for the input everyone.

I do my best to not "mess with someone's head" when I "pre warn" them. Usually, I say it something like:

I don't know if you realize it, but you <whatever I see> and I don't want you to take a penalty for it.

I normally get thanked.....one time someone did say "they weren't going to do <whatever the issue was>" and I apologized.

So, I'll keep pre-warning card mates when it is appropriate.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Thanks for the input everyone.

I do my best to not "mess with someone's head" when I "pre warn" them. Usually, I say it something like:

I don't know if you realize it, but you <whatever I see> and I don't want you to take a penalty for it.

I normally get thanked.....one time someone did say "they weren't going to do <whatever the issue was>" and I apologized.

So, I'll keep pre-warning card mates when it is appropriate.

I like this approach.

FWIW to those thinking about this, tone of voice and choice of words have a huge impact with regard to how what you're saying, is received by others. You don't want to come across as accusatory (...unless you actually do :\).

As the saying goes...
"It's not what you say, but how you say it."

 

[Discette]

This is something I've had "discussions" about in sanctioned play.

I saw a cardmate (Player 1) about to violate a rule and warned them about it. Another cardmate (Player 2) said I couldn't do that....I had to let them commit the violation. Their argument was that I affected Player 1's score (by saving them the penalty) and therefore, affected Player 2's standing in the round (Player 1 would have had a 'worse' score and possibly Player 2 would have ended up ahead of them).

I said it was just courtesy to notify a player that they were about to violate a rule. Player 2 said there was nothing in the rules about warning a player prior to the violation....only about enforcing the rule after the violation.

So, what do you do in that circumstance? Do you warn a card mate they are about to have a violation? Or is that against the rules?

For an example. A person marks their lie and takes their stance. You notice their supporting point is partially on their mini. Are you allowed to tell them prior to their throw?

There is nothing in the rules preventing you from being a good sportsman.

Spoiler

Player 2 is a jerk!

 

[John Rock]

Ask Player 2 to show you where in the rule book that is a violation and what the penalty is for that infraction. When he agrees that he can't show proof of his argument, maybe tell him to butt out of your conversation and just play his game better if he doesn't want to finish behind Player 1.

 

[BillFleming]

Ask Player 2 to show you where in the rule book that is a violation and what the penalty is for that infraction. When he agrees that he can't show proof of his argument, maybe tell him to butt out of your conversation and just play his game better if he doesn't want to finish behind Player 1.

Sometimes I'd like to tell them to butt out...and I've met a few that would have deserved it.

 

[ILUVSMGS18]

I will usually warn them if they're a respectful/responsible player, but others I'll just let them commit the infraction and call them on it after. It all depends on the round and the person's character. Other cases if it gets committed and no one called it, while on the walk to the next hole I'll say something or explain how they broke a rule, even though it wasn't called.

 

[ray1970]

I will usually warn them if they're a respectful/responsible player, but others I'll just let them commit the infraction and call them on it after. It all depends on the round and the person's character. Other cases if it gets committed and no one called it, while on the walk to the next hole I'll say something or explain how they broke a rule, even though it wasn't called.

It definitely depends on if the infraction was unintentional and/or the player wasn't aware that he/she was violating a rule. I cut them some slack and have a similar conversation after the fact just like you mentioned. Obviously, if a player is intentionally trying to pull some shenanigans and get away with something I'm calling them out but if they make a minor error and are ignorant of it then I will politely explain it to them. Now, unless they have a legitimate learning disability, they've been warned and should correct their errors. Hopefully.

 

[txmxer]

I prefer to play with people that are having fun. I like to talk about the hole or other particulars.

But, I'd refer to David Saul's comment as well.

Id much rather help someone avoid a penalty than have to enforce one, but some players might not appreciate the intent.

 

[Dcinmd]

Here is probably the best example.

A player on your card is about to tee off from the wrong tee pad. Do you say anything to them?

Another example, player is lining up towards a wrong basket. Not a rules violation but do you mention anything to them?

Common card curiosity would dictate if you have certain course knowledge you share with everyone on your card. But then sometimes people are not very receptive to input.

Just don't do it in the middle of their run-ups.

 

[KillerKoala777]

Something like this happened recently at a 4 player team tournament. There was an "island hole" as it kept getting called, but there was a short, bailout option so it wasn't a true island hole. So my team throws and we all miss the island, but one of us lands in the safe, bailout zone. We forgot that his throw was actually in bounds and all proceed to the drop zone, miss our long putts and take a bogey. Immediately after, the other team walks up, laughing at us, and asks why we didn't just take the shot that was in bounds as it would've saved us a stroke.

So yeah, jerks are out there but it is appreciated to warn someone before they make a boneheaded mistake.

Sidenote, we still beat that team so it was all good :thmbup:

 

[BillFleming]

Something like this happened recently at a 4 player team tournament. There was an "island hole" as it kept getting called, but there was a short, bailout option so it wasn't a true island hole. So my team throws and we all miss the island, but one of us lands in the safe, bailout zone. We forgot that his throw was actually in bounds and all proceed to the drop zone, miss our long putts and take a bogey. Immediately after, the other team walks up, laughing at us, and asks why we didn't just take the shot that was in bounds as it would've saved us a stroke.

So yeah, jerks are out there but it is appreciated to warn someone before they make a boneheaded mistake.

Sidenote, we still beat that team so it was all good :thmbup:

And things like that happen when there is a rules "adjustment" specifically for a tournament. We have a course with an elevated basket in a island. Normal course play is: throw from the long tee, miss the island, go to the short tee pad, if you miss from there, retee until you make it.

Then, one tournament painted white lines on the course....if you landed outside the island but in the space between the tee box and the white line it was to be treated as a hazard. If it landed between the white line and the island, you went to the drop zone (short tee). But the white lines were not easily visible from the tee pad and if you played the course frequently, it was easy to forget about the hazard area. When my group got to the tee, I reminded everyone about the new hazard area. Later, we heard a couple of groups had forgotten about it and played it as missing the island - their loss - the temporary tee sign had the rule, the player's caddy book had the rule. If I had been in the group behind them, I would probably have said "don't forget there is a hazard now".

 

[ru4por]

My competition is me and the course. If I am playing well, avoiding mistakes and following my game plan, I will do well. I am not playing the other players on my card, regardless if it is the second round of a reshuffle, or not. I want EVERYONE to play well and have fun. I would appreciate someone giving me a heads up on a violation, so I would certainly be willing to do the same. This is my recreation, this is my passion, this is my fun.