DGPT: 2020 The Preserve Championship July 3-5

[Cgkdisc]

Yes...most are near greens....but when the course is converted to disc golf, the location of the green can change. Look at the 2020 Preserve FPO rounds....Catrina Allen was in a sand trap a few times and it was far enough away where she had to do a run (walk) up. I'd hate to watch anyone end up with a twisted ankle/knee (or worse) because of a sand trap (whether they do a run/walk-up or jump putt).

We can't make every course perfectly safe....there are rocks, wet grass, etc, but sand traps are something that can be made safe.

Sand traps are a start towards a better hazard than OB. Note that a player is not required to take a run-up. That's their choice. It's no different from a lie in the brush off the fairway or in the woods where a player may not be able to take a run-up. If I were going to make sand traps a true hazard as a course owner, I would consider adding pebbles to the sand so players would have even more challenge if they attempted a run-up. Another idea is creating an area filled with boulders (1-3 ft diameter) roughly spaced at our 6 ft social distance so it would be difficult to run-up and essentially create a "stand and deliver" type hazard without actually requiring it.

 

[ToddL]

Another idea is creating an area filled with boulders (1-3 ft diameter) roughly spaced at our 6 ft social distance so it would be difficult to run-up and essentially create a "stand and deliver" type hazard without actually requiring it.

At what point does a rock change from being an obstacle to being a permanent feature of the course? Egad.

 

[Cgkdisc]

At what point does a rock change from being an obstacle to being a permanent feature of the course? Egad.

Clearly indicate that no rocks can be moved in this area. There are some other natural ways or materials to create hazards designers have discussed that have not yet been done on private courses. The problem is doing these things on temp layouts.

 

[biscoe]

Sand is not easy to run and stop in...especially since a run up requires turning on the leading foot. Sand is a twisted ankle just waiting to happen. It shouldn't be that way. Cover up or remove the sand and make it a 'growth' rough (weeds/long grass/whatever)....but please, stop with the sand.

Or you could not run up... I actually like for the footing in the bunkers to be soft on the golf courses I design on.

 

[biscoe]

I have played there. There is room. #4 pin could go 80 feet right. #1 tee could go 80 feet back. There is plenty of room for modifications to toughen it up. I just think watching ALL birdies on some holes is boring to be flat out honest.

60% birdie percentage is too high for many holes. Some simple tweaks to bring the scores down is not to difficult to make, while not overly punishing the medium arms. I still think distance is a skill that is NOT rewarded enough though. If you don't throw 450 or 500, then that's a skill the pro at this event will be punished for and you should be. There are plenty of events for medium and shorter arms to win on, plenty of tightly wooded courses for accuracy.

Longer throwers are rewarded on virtually every hole by way of being able to make throws of all lengths with more control and more controllable discs. Their advantage should be manifested in percentages not simply as a one stroke advantage for throwing farther. That is a fundamental concept of the game of golf.

As regards the Preserve I think any sensible designer is going to see a course of this type progress from easier to more difficult over a period of time rather than vice versa. I know that my tendency would be to work that direction. My main question to those who have been there would be whether the strips of woods between the old golf holes could be more effectively put into play or if they are on the normally available layouts.

 

[Cgkdisc]

My main question to those who have been there would be whether the strips of woods between the old golf holes could be more effectively put into play or if they are on the normally available layouts.

Yes. There are opportunities to use trees to constrain distance with low ceilings off the tee and create doglegs that can't be defeated with distance. Some of the water hazards could be positioned such that the longer throwers had to "lay-up" at say 450 like the rest of the pros so positioning and upshots were either longer or required more skill. Buncr rule with LOP relief would have made putts tougher that landed in the sand trap by the pin on 18, for example.

From what I understand, Cale got the property on a lease to buy (land contract?) to see how it will work out. He quickly got two courses ready for pay-to-play with portable pads and virtually no landscape tweaking. The Black Bear was a hybrid of the two daily courses but still no tweaking. When I was there a month ago, his wife had said the plan was to eventually plant or relocate trees to make the terrain more disc golf like with natural hazards and obstacles. Just not enough time to do some of these things before planning this event. Hopefully, these early successes will encourage Cale to take the next steps towards a more terrain rich set of courses and tournament temp layout he envisioned when coming upon this property opportunity.

 

[DiscFifty]

I think the concept of the island green is greatly under-utilized in course design. It can make an easy par 3 all of a sudden a challenge, especially if the drop zone area is not a given for par. Plus they can be aesthetically designed so they blend in with the surroundings.

 

[Cgkdisc]

I think the concept of the island green is greatly under-utilized in course design. It can make an easy par 3 all of a sudden a challenge, especially if the drop zone area is not a given for par. Plus they can be aesthetically designed so they blend in with the surroundings.

Drop zones should definitely be in position for players to have a realistic probability of making a putt. You shouldn't be getting the equivalent of a 2-shot penalty on what is a par 2 reachable hole.

 

[oldmandiscer]

Longer throwers are rewarded on virtually every hole by way of being able to make throws of all lengths with more control and more controllable discs. Their advantage should be manifested in percentages not simply as a one stroke advantage for throwing farther. That is a fundamental concept of the game of golf.

As regards the Preserve I think any sensible designer is going to see a course of this type progress from easier to more difficult over a period of time rather than vice versa. I know that my tendency would be to work that direction. My main question to those who have been there would be whether the strips of woods between the old golf holes could be more effectively put into play or if they are on the normally available layouts.

I think they could in places, without infringing on the other holes, I also don't know where the property line is though. So some of my thoughts on some extensions may not be do able. Like along the river and wether or not Cale could do some clearing along that edge or not for potential hole locations. I know this course was very recently put into the ground and that bigger changes like clearing into woods and such may not have been in the cards. Just putting in 36 holes and putting in a temp course for the tourney was a lot of work.

Cale did mention that another 18 holes is possible out there as well. So he does have quite a bit more land available. Some of the softer holes which were birdie or die can easily be toughened up.

I think some of the shorter par 4's could be great longer par 4's as well though. 667 par 4 with a 100 foot wide fairway is too easy for these players, in my opinion.

Like #1 if it was pushed back to 750 then all of a sudden players will want to land closer to the left side to shorten up the second shot, versus taking the water out of play, bailing out right and still making a somewhat simple 250 foot upshot.

 

[biscoe]

From what I understand, Cale got the property on a lease to buy (land contract?) to see how it will work out. He quickly got two courses ready for pay-to-play with portable pads and virtually no landscape tweaking. The Black Bear was a hybrid of the two daily courses but still no tweaking. When I was there a month ago, his wife had said the plan was to eventually plant or relocate trees to make the terrain more disc golf like with natural hazards and obstacles. Just not enough time to do some of these things before planning this event. Hopefully, these early successes will encourage Cale to take the next steps towards a more terrain rich set of courses and tournament temp layout he envisioned when coming upon this property opportunity.

Makes sense. We are in that same transitional state at Raptor's Roost. Golf course there has been closed since 2014 so there are some useful scrub trees which have grown up but getting it to be a true disc golf course rather than disc golf on a golf course is going to be several years work.

 

[biscoe]

I think the concept of the island green is greatly under-utilized in course design.

I think it is one of the most over-used tricks in the designer's bag. That being said I am in the process of putting one in on what was an island green on a traditional golf hole as well.

 

[Lazerface]

lots of good ideas here. I particularly like the idea of VERY long grass areas, boulder fields, sand traps, etc being strategically placed in some of these large fairways that would require more accurate shot placement without the introduction of artificial OB. I'm not actually against artificial OB in disc golf and am in fact often a proponent, but it seems this is not the direction Cale wants to go.

 

[DiscFifty]

I think it is one of the most over-used tricks in the designer's bag. That being said I am in the process of putting one in on what was an island green on a traditional golf hole as well.

Really? I don't see it that often in the big events, locally in the DFW area there is maybe only 1 course that has a true island green. Is it more common where you are?

 

[Cgkdisc]

A better disc golf analogy to a ball golf island green might look like a Stonehenge of posts or taller mature trees (no low branches) spaced around an 8-10m radius circle. Gotta hit a window or risk kicking too far to make your putt. Disc golf is more about shaping shots around vertical obstacles than it is about landing surfaces which is the purview of ball golf.

 

[araytx]

Little to no wind, Wide fairways and little OB in play you will get low scores. I really feel Cale should consider some more length on a few holes.

#1 could be a great 750 foot hole.
#2 could be pushed back into the woods another 50 feet. More like 330.
#11 is silly for these guys. Push that back into the woods up and to the right. Make it about 750-800.
#12 could be pushed back 40 feet to make it 335.
#13 could be even better pushed back and right another 30 feet making that 370.
#15 was too easy, push either the basket back or tee. 700 is too short.
#17 would be cool another 50 feet back making it 320.

I thought 18 could be longer but it's probably fine. Showing that even with a little wind, eagle was not that common.

I played these courses myself a month ago(different layouts on some holes obviously), (not in the tourney) and if a bunt 375 thrower like me can reach them easily like 15 and 11, it's mince meat for the pro caliber.

I think most holes were good however. The added wind on the final day helped the course play tougher. I like having a course with little OB so the bombers can have a field day for once. However the design needs to be long to make it tough.

Some of those fairways are incredibly wide and people were still missing them. I say if you have 100ft+ of fairway to hit and you miss it, you deserve to take a stroke.

I hear you on the fun part and the wind was down too, especially the 1st two days. I still think some more distance is needed to challenge these top players. For instance #1 at 667, water left and then second shot plays over the water/OB. Now push that tee back to 750 and it brings that water more into play on the teeshot and the second shot. Versus guys being able to play way right and still have a short approach. An extra 80 feet would punish bad shots but it still isn't too far for the medium arms to score. A solid 400 foot drive then 350 in on the second. That's not asking too much for how wide the fairway is.

I saw the birdie percentage on some holes was pushing 60%, that's for the whole field including low rated players. That's just too high IMO.

I'm sure next year we will see some tweaks. He was able to gather some information this year and some tweaks can easily be made. There is plenty of land there for options.

Several people talking about the length; I think shortening several of those holes to long par 3's would make it more exciting -- and still encourage the big bombs. For example, if hole 1 is somewhere between 480'-550' and a par 3, even the big arms have to make decisions with OB water close by. But the top pros CAN get it on the green and that would be the thing to watch.

Maybe re-shaping some of the fairways by letting the grass grow higher in certain areas could help. You could create distinct landing zones this way. If the rough grass is tall and thick enough, it would essentially prevent a run up since you're not allowed to trample down your lie. It could also affect your angle of release. This would be more of that natural OB that is talked about. Like in golf, the rough isn't as easy as the fairway to hit from, but it's in bounds. Maybe this could have a similar effect.

Of course, this also brings some negatives into play, too... lost discs, more time searching for lost discs, snakes, tics, etc. It just seems like a simple way to possibly improve the play.

I've been a fan in the past of using high grass as a design element, and make it a required throw from a standstill (no stroke penalty) if you land there.

Every new course will have growing pains. I'm sure the owner will learn and adapt from what he saw happen during the tournament rounds

Ex-ball golf courses are great for growing our sport....land can be difficult to find so re-using ex-ball golf courses provides lots of land for new disc golf courses. There are usually ponds, watering systems, trees, and other features existing that are valuable to setting up a disc golf course. The only issue is that ball golf courses have open fairways....but that is 'fixable' by creating hazards/out of bounds/rough/lines where you have to go through trees where needed. But until the course is played enough, you can't tell where the 'fixes' are needed. And fixes for casual players aren't the same as fixes needed for tournament players.

The only thing I don't like about converting ball golf courses to disc golf are the sand traps. In ball golf, all shots are done from a stand-still...not so in disc golf. Sand is not easy to run and stop in...especially since a run up requires turning on the leading foot. Sand is a twisted ankle just waiting to happen. It shouldn't be that way. Cover up or remove the sand and make it a 'growth' rough (weeds/long grass/whatever)....but please, stop with the sand.

Those things might be possible on a converted ball golf course. But what about the many still active ball golf courses that share with disc golf?

I think the concept of the island green is greatly under-utilized in course design. It can make an easy par 3 all of a sudden a challenge, especially if the drop zone area is not a given for par. Plus they can be aesthetically designed so they blend in with the surroundings.

BOOO, frickin' hiss. See Chuck's comment and my tirades on FB.

Assessing wind, figuring out how far to straddle, etc is NOT determining the lie.

802.05 Lie (I'm not quoting the whole thing, but this is important part):
The lie is the place on the playing surface upon which the player takes a stance in order to throw.

So the 'determining the lie' does not include testing of the wind, etc.

Bill, I would likely have to agree with you that what you say there is true if Nikko hadn't already marked his lie. But since in this context he had, that part of the definition in 803.02 is met; he had simply back up from his lie to determine the wind -- so yes, that is part of the timing issue and him using excessive time.

 

[araytx]

Sorry. 802.03. Dyslexic moment.

 

[takman]

Several people talking about the length; I think shortening several of those holes to long par 3's would make it more exciting -- and still encourage the big bombs. For example, if hole 1 is somewhere between 480'-550' and a par 3, even the big arms have to make decisions with OB water close by. But the top pros CAN get it on the green and that would be the thing to watch.

Yes.....this! All those dump up par 4s are not for exciting play IMO. Remember a few years ago the Australian Open had lots of longacious par 3s and it made the under par rounds quite a feat. 15 and 16 under rounds should not be part of an elite event.

 

[oldmandiscer]

araytx, I hear you about making a long Par 3, it would be exciting to see a bomber attack it. But for the sake of the medium arm crowd touring pro I'd rather see 750 par 4. Either player can score there, while the 500 foot par 3, the medium/short arm is going to layup and take par 99% of the time.

Still saying that, having one hole on the course like that I feel is OK. A bomber 500 foot par 3 hole that is.

 

[Steve West]

Sorry. 802.03. Dyslexic moment.

Wait, do you think there is a case where a player is allowed extra time to gauge the wind?

 

[Steve West]

And now a word from:

806.04 Relief Area
A. A relief area is an area designated by the Director from which a disc may not be played, 
    or any in-bounds area that players are prohibited by law from entering. 
    A relief area is played as an out-of-bounds area with the exception that 
    no penalty throw is assessed to a player whose disc comes to rest in a relief area.

... Buncr rule with LOP relief would have made putts tougher that landed in the sand trap by the pin on 18, for example. ...

Buncr with LOP relief is not a real rule, and never will be because of the possibility that LOP may not actually offer a lie. Relief Area (no-penalty OB) does essentially the same thing, except the player relocates the lie according to the OB rules (last point not in the Relief Area). Usually, that will be a similar location as LOP relief because players are usually trying to throw over the sand trap.

I think it is one of the most over-used tricks in the designer's bag. That being said I am in the process of putting one in on what was an island green on a traditional golf hole as well.

You can use Relief Area (no-penalty OB) for everywhere-except-the-island instead of OB. This still splits the field by hit or miss, without double-weighting the value of that one throw.